Ford got the paddle shifters completely wrong

[copb8]

If you are in Drive, and to use the paddles to drop down a gear or two quickly...just pull the shifter back into Manual mode.

This takes away from what could've been an extremely useful and seamless tool. Dropping into M is fine but is an extra big reach and then again to return to Drive mode.

I do agree with you regarding the 6 spd vs 10 spd. The 10 spd works 'ok' but it really adds zero to the driving pleasure. Mostly for fuel economy i'd guess.

 

[jaz13]

Paddle shifts on a 10-speed are pointless anyway. No torque-convertor automatic is going to have really fast and crisp shifting with paddles. Now, a dual-clutch transmission is actually fun to drive with paddles...because it is very fast and feels like a manual...including rollback on inclines.

Not true anymore. Torque converter is faster and more fuel efficient. BMW is dropping dual clutch on M5 for performance reasons. Nothing beats a clutch pedal and stick for feel tho......

 

[troverman]

Not true anymore. Torque converter is faster and more fuel efficient. BMW is dropping dual clutch on M5 for performance reasons. Nothing beats a clutch pedal and stick for feel tho......

Torque-converter transmissions are getting faster but it depends on the class of car (money) you are looking at. Torque converter transmissions are cheaper to make. So maybe the M5 has a torque converter now, but Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti...all the hypercars are sticking with dual clutch because it really is faster. If you understand how they work, it *must* be faster, or at least the well made ones. Dual clutch can have the next gear already loaded and clutched...driver pulls the paddle and the clutch engages explosively fast...and with virtually zero loss of power between gears. Torque converter cannot preload a gear and still uses a solenoid to open / close to make the shift happen. BMW never really had a good 'dual clutch' transmission...I think they actually used a single-clutch style auto transmission. Many people prefer the smoothness of a torque converter transmission, which is definitely smoother. Makes a lot of sense in a BMW M5 which may be fast but is hardly the ultimate driving machine anymore. More of a cruiser.

 

[jaz13]

Torque-converter transmissions are getting faster but it depends on the class of car (money) you are looking at. Torque converter transmissions are cheaper to make. So maybe the M5 has a torque converter now, but Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti...all the hypercars are sticking with dual clutch because it really is faster. If you understand how they work, it *must* be faster, or at least the well made ones. Dual clutch can have the next gear already loaded and clutched...driver pulls the paddle and the clutch engages explosively fast...and with virtually zero loss of power between gears. Torque converter cannot preload a gear and still uses a solenoid to open / close to make the shift happen. BMW never really had a good 'dual clutch' transmission...I think they actually used a single-clutch style auto transmission. Many people prefer the smoothness of a torque converter transmission, which is definitely smoother. Makes a lot of sense in a BMW M5 which may be fast but is hardly the ultimate driving machine anymore. More of a cruiser.

Look guys, another anonymous internet genius who knows more about the M5 than engineer who is in charge of BMW’s M5 program.

 

[copb8]

When BMW got into manu-matics it start with their SMG (single clutch) transmission. It was clucky and not very good. They eventually migrated to the their DCT (dual-clutch) which was night and day better.

All this has nothing to do with whether the functionality of the FORD RAPTOR's paddle shifters could be improved to supply more value to the driver even using its existing 10-speed torque converter transmission. It would simply be a software change.

 

[WhatExit?]

Ford got the paddle shifters completely worong


This takes away from what could've been an extremely useful and seamless tool. Dropping into M is fine but is an extra big reach and then again to return to Drive mode.

I'm enjoying your critique of Ford's paddle shifters and your comparison to your wife's Infiniti.

What is your issue with putting it into M and then using the paddles as you want?

Ford gave us 2 ways to use the paddles - in lockout mode or in M. What problem do you have with those options?

Put the truck in Manual mode and do all the shifting you want.

 

[troverman]

Look guys, another anonymous internet genius who knows more about the M5 than engineer who is in charge of BMW’s M5 program.

Hardly...but what did I say that you find so offensive? I didn't insult you...so why do you need to insult me? BMW's first transmission sans a torque converter (called SMG, as clarified by CopB8) was not very good. Clunky, jerky, not great for daily driving. CopB8 also clarified they introduced a true dual-clutch which was much better. Now you state they are going back to a torque converter transmission. Fine. I think if you follow BMW, and all of the auto-enthusiast magazines, you'll find BMW has moved towards speed, luxury, and refinement and further away from "the ultimate driving machine." Road feel, handling, manual transmissions, etc...have all become less priority. So in this case, it makes sense that they would move away from the cutting edge of quickly changing gears and back to a compromise design that still changes gears very quickly but is cheaper, more reliable, and has good daily driver function. Perhaps it changes gears quicker than their old DCT...but that doesn't mean it is on par with the best in segment.

I apologize for going off topic.

 

[smurfslayer]

I'm enjoying your critique of Ford's paddle shifters and your comparison to your wife's Infiniti.

What is your issue with putting it into M and then using the paddles as you want?

Ford gave us 2 ways to use the paddles - in lockout mode or in M. What problem do you have with those options?

Put the truck in Manual mode and do all the shifting you want.

It’ not ideal. I realize drawing analogies to what other manufacturers do is sort of lost here, and maybe gear lockout is more suited to a truck than car, and perhaps that’s why some of us have the opinion Ford missed the mark on this a little.

 

[jaz13]

Hardly...but what did I say that you find so offensive? I didn't insult you...so why do you need to insult me? BMW's first transmission sans a torque converter (called SMG, as clarified by CopB8) was not very good. Clunky, jerky, not great for daily driving. CopB8 also clarified they introduced a true dual-clutch which was much better. Now you state they are going back to a torque converter transmission. Fine. I think if you follow BMW, and all of the auto-enthusiast magazines, you'll find BMW has moved towards speed, luxury, and refinement and further away from "the ultimate driving machine." Road feel, handling, manual transmissions, etc...have all become less priority. So in this case, it makes sense that they would move away from the cutting edge of quickly changing gears and back to a compromise design that still changes gears very quickly but is cheaper, more reliable, and has good daily driver function. Perhaps it changes gears quicker than their old DCT...but that doesn't mean it is on par with the best in segment.

I apologize for going off topic.

The guy in charge of the BMW M5 program said they did it for performance reasons. You claim he is wrong. I know who I believe.

You are correct. The current generation M5 with DCT is a grotesque pig. The next generation M5 with torque converter is going to reclaim the performance crown largely thanks to shedding a lot of weight and a serious refocus on performance.

Dual clutch's day is past. There is a reason race cars never used dual clutches. Namely they are heavy, complex, and fragile.

 

[troverman]

Hey, I hope the next M5 is awesome. I always loved the E39 M5 with a V8 and a stick...despite all the double-vanos problems.

BMW may be able to up the ante with a torque converter from where they were, but *I believe* a DCT is the fastest type of shifting possible. I wouldn't call the Ricado 7-speed DCT in the Veyron "fragile" but it does shift fast.