Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor

[MingTheMerciless]

the rest of my points are still valid?

Aw dude... you're not going to make me read all that carefully, are you?

Lets boil this down into simple terms:

NOW we're talking I can do that.

Lets say you're my insurance carrier. Lets also say I call you up and said "Hey Ming, I want to remove my swaybar. As my insurance guy, are there any concerns or adjustments I need you to make to my policy? If so, lets talk about those issues and please quote me. If not, can I get you to add a note to my record that we've had this conversation, and that you gave me the thumbs up? Thanks!"

How might you respond, as the insurer on the hook?

OK "as your insurance carrier" lets assume I am an agent and you are not dealing directly with a company representative, which is the case if you are, say, a GEICO customer. BTW the whole agent thing is a whole separate subject. Should you go direct? Should you use an agent? What kind of agents are not really agents? Worthwhile questions to ask. Short answer: Use an independent agent. They have a fiduciary responsibility to put your interests first and foremost, and they have an Errors & Omissions insurance policy (i.e. malpractice) that you can sue if they turn out to not have done that, or they screw up. Go direct to a GEICO, or use a company whose agents are "captive" (represent only them) and you lose that extra layer of last-ditch protection.

OK so you called me. If I am giving you the right answer, I say I will have to check with the Underwriting department and get back to you. Then I go to the carrier, ask an underwriter and I get a written response (nowadays that will be an email). If I have any brains I will store that email, headers included, somewhere safe with your customer file. If I am the typical agent I will leave it in my inbox forever and lets hope I can find it again someday if I need it. Then I'll get back to you and - if you are smart - you will want a copy of that email or a direct letter from the underwriter - or a policy endorsement... which is never going to happen when it comes to removing equipment... but I digress..

A policy underwriter - someone who is charged by the company with the task of assessing risk and approving same - is the only person who can give a straight, proper answer to the question. The agent has no say in the matter and I don't care what is said to the contrary (lots of agents will tell you they have clout and they can get it taken care of. BS I say... cause a big accident and I don't care how influential that agent thinks they are... the company will not pay out a $300-500,000 to keep that agent happy). The only exception to this is when the agent has been given underwriting authority. Then they really are the shot-caller, but that is *extremely* rare in auto insurance. I have it, but what we do is very very different from the norm in the industry.

There won't be any 'conversation' about the issues associated with sway bar safety. You aren't an auto safety engineer and neither is the underwriter. So they will default to a safety-based decision. In the case of removing equipment from the car that will affect its road handling, I'm going to bet that the answer, 99.437% of the time, will be 'hell no', 0.00562% of the time it will be just no and 0.001% of the time they will say yes. Arguments that "well it doesn't really matter" are just not going to fly UNLESS you find an agent who has a specialty program who does just off-road vehicles, is well-versed in the specifics of these very specific mods and who has a company that has signed off on providing coverage for the hobbyist/enthusiast in this niche. I don't know of any such product on the market but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.

 

[BigJ]

Ok. So this 'mod' is basically officially a non starter, and its unrealistic when I suggest shopping 'the just doing it' around for someone to earn your business. I get that.

I guess then, if I want to make this mod I do it and keep my mouth shut. And hope that the same lack of knowledge on the underwriter's part before hand protects me after the fact, after an accident.

Meaning, they wont know to look for the missing sway, or even consider it as a probable cause/contributor to the accident because they're (1) boneheads or (2) there is truth to the statement that the presence (or lack there of) of a swaybar cannot/does not contribute or cause an accident. And, of course, if that bonehead does notice the missing bar, I guess I need to be fully prepared to prove (2) in a court of law (because you know their ignorance will lead them to point at its missing, blame the accident on it and void my coverage).

I'm really rolling the dice that they're (1) unobservant, or (2) incompetent when it comes to determining why an accident occurred and/or (3) I'm smarter than the safety engineer my insurance is sure to hire to prove it did cause/contribute, and that I can prove otherwise beyond doubt to a judge.

Is that basically the bottom line?

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Yeah pretty much. If you crack a wheel somehow on the street thanks to overshooting a corner, there won't be intense scrutiny... But an adjuster may physically look at the vehicle and you stand a chance of the guy seeing the mod. From there, its a judgment call as to whether the claim is paid even if its a breach of the agreement. The company may pay and then cancel you. Sometimes thats the answer to minimize our costs... we are basically in the right and we know we were taken for a ride but its cheaper to just pay it off and dump the risk afterwards. Something people fail to realize is insurance companies do this job every day and the guy or gal trying to pull a fast one is probably being a criminal for the first time. People don't realize how easy it is to smell a rat when you have your nose down there all the time.

On the other hand, if something bad happens and you, say, hit a pedestrian... Its a guarantee that any alterations to the car will be discovered.

 

[BigJ]

Reality sucks

 

[bstoner59]

I would love to gets stats on:

a) the number of trucks without swaybars
b) the number of accidents in which the "lack of swaybar" was the cause.
c) the number of owners of trucks without swaybars thast were forced to pay damages out-of-pocket because they removed the swaybar.
d) the number of trucks without swaybars involved in accidents that could have been attributed to "lack of swaybar" that the insurance company covered.

Pretty sure it's almost impossible to find these stats...but I'm willing to bet that the percentage of c) to a) is in the single digits. Just a thought...



What if my aunt was born with balls??
She'd be my uncle!!

We could play these "what if" games all day long...

 

[MingTheMerciless]

We could play these "what if" games all day long...

Yup. Thats why the company is probably going to err on the side of safety (their safety) and default to 'no'. They can't get stats like that either without some serious funding, and to what purpose? So they can decide whether or not to insure a teeny tiny niche of the auto enthusiast market? There's no money in it. I looked around today for a modified truck or off-road insurance program and found nothing. It doesn't look as if there are enough of you guys to generate any interest with respect to developing a specialty product.

 

[BigJ]

I'll ping a couple police friends of mine and see what they say; I'm curious to know what 'they' look for during an accident investigation. That's really where the rubber meets the road, I think.

I've read several times that a swaybar IS something many officers look for (Ming's 'they know what to look for' in action). But I'll specifically ask these guys and post up what they say.

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Well that may be but actually I was thinking of adjusters inspecting the vehicle after the fact at the tow yard, not the cops at the scene of the accident. But I expect the same principle of scrutiny would hold. If we're talking minor property damage vs. a fatally struck pedestrian the standards of investigation would be different.

Either way I'd be interested to hear that response myself. Generally from the stuff I see its not the police that determine equipment issues. They tell us who was plastered and behind the wheel, who was in what lane, at what speed etc. Stuff that perhaps matters in cases where liability needs to be determined.

 

[KaiserM715]

I'll ping a couple police friends of mine and see what they say; I'm curious to know what 'they' look for during an accident investigation. That's really where the rubber meets the road, I think.

Well that may be but actually I was thinking of adjusters inspecting the vehicle after the fact at the tow yard, not the cops at the scene of the accident. But I expect the same principle of scrutiny would hold. If we're talking minor property damage vs. a fatally struck pedestrian the standards of investigation would be different.

Either way I'd be interested to hear that response myself. Generally from the stuff I see its not the police that determine equipment issues. They tell us who was plastered and behind the wheel, who was in what lane, at what speed etc. Stuff that perhaps matters in cases where liability needs to be determined.

Regardless of one's position on this particular issue, I am curious about this. Looking forward to the response.

I've read several times that a swaybar IS something many officers look for (Ming's 'they know what to look for' in action). But I'll specifically ask these guys and post up what they say.

One thing to keep in mind, not all vehicles have sway bars. Whether they are present or not depends on year and model (and sometimes trim level). One example I can think of would be the difference between an F-350 and F-450 of the same year model (note: I don't know whether one does or doesn't, btw, just a made up example). Are the officers / adjusters trained and / or familiar enough with all of these vehicles to know one way or another? There are an awful lot of vehicles, year models, trim levels and sub-models to know.

 

[BigJ]

One officer buddy has already gotten back to me. Here's some of this thoughts:

Off the top of my head, I don't think it is inherently illegal to remove a suspension component, or replace it with something else.
...
With that said, If someone was involved in a traffic crash while driving a vehicle that had been modified, I could see someone seeking a civil remedy by arguing that the driver operated a vehicle in an "unsafe condition" resulting in a loss of control that may have contributed to the crash.

If I were investigating a crash where the loss of control was an issue, I would consider any modifications that may have contributed. I do think it would be difficult to prove negligence in a criminal court, but as I mentioned before, civil court is where the money is and it has a lower standard of proof.
...
All I could find in the CA code was a "catch-all" unsafe vehicle. I couldn't find anything in reference to removing a suspension component.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=24000-24018

24002. (a) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of
vehicles which is in an unsafe condition, or which is not safely
loaded, and which presents an immediate safety hazard.
(b) It is unlawful to operate any vehicle or combination of
vehicles which is not equipped as provided in this code.

There most certainly is legislation related to the removal of federally mandated and factory installed "safety devices", however, I don't think a sway bar is a "safety device".

Running without a rear bar shouldn't affect the driving much at all. It's the front that you need when swerving around something.

How much articulation will you achieve by removing the front? I'm not sure the safety trade-off on the highway is worth it. Get some disconnects.

This sure smells like California gun laws, and the rampant ambiguity inherent in the system. Basically, every gun law lawyer I've ever talked to (and I've talked to several) all say the exact same thing: you might be ok trying ***, but let someone else be the example that decides the case law. You DO NOT want that to be you.