Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor

[Xjrguy]

My softball hurts

That's what she said.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

My softball hurts

There's an app for that :mrgreen:

 

[whtrapta]

You cant compare "unlocked" jeeps to raptors. A jeep wrangler has both front and rear live axles. These are the "base" of the vehicle, and all weight above (body, drivetrain, engine, etc.) sit in the frame "upper section" if you will. The only thing holding the "upper section" to the "base" is springs. So on a turn or high speed its going to wobble all over the place due to a high center of gravity. It would be like trying to run with mattress springs under your shoes.
The Raptor has independent A-arm suspension up front. These are directly connected to the frame eliminating the "base" and "upper section" As the body moves side to side in a turn (say a left) the right suspension stiffens, compresses, and the arm pushes out. So look at this. a jeep hangs over the "base" in a turn, a raptor sinks low and wide in a turn. Stand with your feet together and lean side to side. Now stand and lean but move your foot to the side you lean. The second is a lot more stable. Its the same in a car.
very complex i know but there is not easy way to explain.

 

[BigJ]

Brought over from this thread, so as to not further derail it (mybad :doh

So what about lift kits and all kinds of other mods that affect the handling, braking, or acceleration of the vehicle?

Can anyone quote a case where an insurance company failed to pay a claim because of a mod?

(There's a big difference in what an insurance company rep tells you and what the law says)

The truth is that if insurance companies were allowed to deny public liability claims they would. What about DUI's? That's actually a deliberate illegal act that contributed to the accident. Can the insurance company just not pay because you did something illegal? (and just to be clear, removing a sway bar is NOT illegal)

The insurance business is to NOT pay claims. I could see the insurance company failing to pay to reimburse you for your undisclosed mods but not paying damages to the party you injured? No way. Sure, they might drop you afterwards just like they probably would if you got a DUI... but I seriously doubt they could get away with not paying the party you injured.

Again, any proof of where a claim was not paid to the injured party because the vehicle was modded? Specifically, a sway bar removed or changed? What about spring changes? Changing the spring rate (Deavers?) would affect the handling as much or more as removing the front sway bar. Would you feel the need to call your insurer if you decided to change your springs? (I think part of the problem is the "mystery" surrounding sway bars and what they actually do)

Everybody has the right to an opinion. I have not removed my sway bar and I'm not planning to. But not because I feel the sway bar on the Raptor would significantly alter the handling in a negative or dangerous way.

Here's something: I won't buy the new General tires because I feel the added weight (40lbs per wheel or so) will significantly affect the performance and the stopping power of my vehicle.

I'll debate that all day long. I'll strive to find real world test results regarding tire weight and the effects on stopping power. (or better yet, perform actual tests using the Raptor).

So among the "do not remove your sway bar" crowd, who has done any research to prove the horrors of removal? Anyone? Bueller?

All I've seen is opinion backed up by well-meaning but fear-inducing statements about "what might happen" if you got into an accident...

Mark I think you're slightly missing my particular point, although you raise some good general points to consider.

The issue lies in that little checkbox on your auto insurance app asking something to the effect of if the subject vehicle had been "rebuilt, salvaged, modified, altered, or specially built/customized?"

There are recent examples in which an auto insurance company denied coverage because someone "modified" their vehicle; in one case, in Florida, "modified" to the insurer meant large tires and a lift kit (click here for details; as far as I know this case is still pending and the insured hasn't been paid a single dime since his accident back in April). I don't know about you, but I can't afford to wait for the courts to decide who pays my new car costs, or medical bills, or heaven forbid those medical bills of anyone I hurt, not to mention any legal fees...

Even if the courts decide that, in this particular case, the term "modified" was too ambiguous and the company has to pay, you can damn well know the company will adjust their verbiage on the application, and make sure the ambiguity is removed... meaning yes, next time, an undisclosed lift and large tires WILL void your insurance.

That's what I'm saying; by doing these things and NOT informing the people you've hired to cover you (your insurance company), you are totally leaving yourself open for them to fire you. You've breached the contract if in their opinion you misrepresented yourself and/or your vehicle. They can and will (1) deny the claim, (2) drop you as a client and/or (3) sue you personally for all monies they were legally bound to pay on the claim (to the other party/insurance company).

As indirect proof at that this is a concern to at least be aware of, I can point out that there is an entire branch of auto insurance dedicated to "Modified vehicles". Hagerty immediately comes to mind, as does Leland West, and several others a quick "modified vehicle insurance" google shows.

There are companies out there that specialize in covering "modified" cars and trucks. Where the AAA and StateFarms of the world will charge you unreal premiums or drop you outright, these companies step in and cover you for an arguably fair price. There's no argument with these companies whether or not your swaybar removal or Deavers or ultra crazy heavy tiers, for example, are covered because you disclosed those mods to them from day one, and they covered you with that knowledge at the agreed upon premium.

Is that helping to make a bit more sense of what I'm trying to say? I'm not living in fear, but I also understand my actions have repercussions. In the case of a swaybar, the minimal performance gains do not justify investigating those repercussions from an "am I insured" perspective. In my opinion that's not fear... that's just real life.

 

[BigJ]

PS: Here's a pretty good writeup from someone who's been thru it. This focuses more on the replacement value of things, but does touch upon liability issues as well.

http://www.nagca.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36491

The bottom line I'm seeing repeated over and over, be it from guys like you and me who've been thru this, lawyers, insurance agents... they all are saying you need to have "full disclosure" with your insurer. If you plan to do something like remove the sway, tell your insurance agent, and get it in writing/on record you told them. If its no biggie like many seem to think, this one little extra step should also be no biggie. And the benefits of doing it, if you're wrong and it does turn out to be a biggie, seem to be even more reason to pick up the phone.

 

[MarkT]

PS: Here's a pretty good writeup from someone who's been thru it. This focuses more on the replacement value of things, but does touch upon liability issues as well.

http://www.nagca.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36491

The bottom line I'm seeing repeated over and over, be it from guys like you and me who've been thru this, lawyers, insurance agents... they all are saying you need to have "full disclosure" with your insurer. If you plan to do something like remove the sway, tell your insurance agent, and get it in writing/on record you told them. If its no biggie like many seem to think, this one little extra step should also be no biggie. And the benefits of doing it, if you're wrong and it does turn out to be a biggie, seem to be even more reason to pick up the phone.

As I said, there is no doubt in my mind that you will not be reimbursed for "added equipment" that is not disclosed to the insurance company. That just makes sense. How can the insurance company be on the hook for $20,000 in mods or extra equipment they didn't know about (or charge premiums for)?

And I believe most of the "specialty" insurance companies exist for one reason. A regular insurance company is probably going to say your (stock or modified) '57 Chevy is worth $200 by their books and will refuse to pay you more in case of accident. It's all about covering YOUR investment... not the other guy.

But can they cancel your liability coverage? I don't see that happening. (IMHO, it has been implied that you could possibly be left with zero insurance if you removed your sway bar)

As far as "mods" goes, I had a friend who rolled a brand new box stock Toyota FJ Cruiser by not paying attention and dropping two wheels off a narrow trail at low speed. Totalled. The insurance company initially said that he was "misusing" the vehicle by going off road and that they would not cover the damages. The finance company called "BS" and within days he had a brand new FJ.

I have no problem contacting my insurance guy and asking him for facts regarding modifications. But the one thing you have to remember is that insurance companies are not your friend. They are not in the business of paying claims. They are in the business of not paying claims. They are in the business of collecting as high a premium as possible. What they "say" and what the laws regulating the insurance industry say are often quite different.

(The thing that bothers me the most is that "disclosure" is akin to asking permission. And who says that you did not just "incriminate" yourself. And what do you do if they say "installing a CAI will void your insurance"? )

What would be more valuable is to find out what the laws and regulations actually say regarding insurance and what you are required to disclose. Because if changing your seats can cancel your insurance, you'd better believe the insurance companies would do it in a hearbeat. Heck, they might try to claim the aftermarket brake pads you installed don't have the exact properties of factory brakes so sorry, "no coverage". Oh look... the traffic cam shows you didn't have your hands at the recommended 10 and 2 on the wheel! No coverage.

Sound crazy? Perhaps. But IMHO that's exactly where we might be headed if even enthusiasts start believing even a minor mod might void their insurance coverage.

 

[BigJ]

But can they cancel your liability coverage? I don't see that happening. (IMHO, it has been implied that you could possibly be left with zero insurance if you removed your sway bar)

I provided an example showing a lift and tires voided a guys insurance. That case is now tied up in the court system. Why not a swaybar removal?

I have no problem contacting my insurance guy and asking him for facts regarding modifications. But the one thing you have to remember is that insurance companies are not your friend. They are not in the business of paying claims. They are in the business of not paying claims. They are in the business of collecting as high a premium as possible. What they "say" and what the laws regulating the insurance industry say are often quite different.

Aren't you making my point for me?? By not telling them about a mod like the swaybar removal, you're givin them the bullet to shoot you with, aren't you?

I guess I don't get why that makes sense. Why not talk with them first and get their 'ok' on record. If they say no, no problem! Move on to a different insurance company who says yes.

(The thing that bothers me the most is that "disclosure" is akin to asking permission. And who says that you did not just "incriminate" yourself. And what do you do if they say "installing a CAI will void your insurance"? )

Well that's why I phrased it in terms of you hiring them and entering an agreement with them. You've agreed to work with them and they've agreed to cover you. If you change the conditions of the agreement, you certainly owe it to the other side to disclose that change and allow for a renegotiation. Isn't that how business is run everywhere, everyday?

What would be more valuable is to find out what the laws and regulations actually say regarding insurance and what you are required to disclose. Because if changing your seats can cancel your insurance, you'd better believe the insurance companies would do it in a hearbeat. Heck, they might try to claim the aftermarket brake pads you installed don't have the exact properties of factory brakes so sorry, "no coverage". Oh look... the traffic cam shows you didn't have your hands at the recommended 10 and 2 on the wheel! No coverage.

Sound crazy? Perhaps. But IMHO that's exactly where we might be headed if even enthusiasts start believing even a minor mod might void their insurance coverage.

it's not crazy at all. Its happening right now; they are denying claims because owners failed to disclose even the simplest things (I read one example where a CAI was grounds enough for Gieco to say no). After all... These companies are not your friend...

You might be right Mark. But I think you'll be dead right. Are you the guy to stand up and take them to court? To spend tens or hundreds of thousands in legal costs defending yourself and your non disclosed mods? To help make policy? To help make legal change? Just so a judge can agree that the insurance companies suck, and it's not right, and all that... But, Sir, you did check this here box on this here application that said the truck was not altered or modified...

All because you stood on principle refusing to play the game by picking up the phone, asking them, and finding out their stance? I dunno bud... the days of a look in the eye and solid handshake are long gone.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Thanks BigJ, for having the patience to share this information with all of us. :thumbsup:

Thanks Mark, for playing devil's advocate.

 

[A.I.I.Raciing]

I have a ? about insurance

I've had the same insurance company/policy(State Farm) since I started driving in 1993 and have never signed a single thing regarding a contract that I can recall, definitely not since turning 18(I'm going to ask my parent's if they signed anything or not almost 20 years ago). Now I've had 13 trucks and bikes on my policy and not one time have they asked me any questions regarding them besides the normal Vin #/milage/price ect. None of the truck's have ever been stock nor have I had to make any claims in those 17 years(luckily).

So my question is, will the Ins. company have a leg to stand on if they want to void my policy if I'm in an accident and as an adult I have not signed a contract with them, that is if they can legally not cover me due to my Mod's?

 

[MagicMtnDan]

So my question is, will the Ins. company have a leg to stand on if they want to void my policy if I'm in an accident and as an adult I have not signed a contract with them, that is if they can legally not cover me due to my Mod's?

Don't know for sure but I'll bet if you read the fine print on your policy you'll find out you're lucky you haven't had to file a claim.