Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor

[MarkT]

The most important thing in the example quoted is the insured blatantly committed fraud on the application. (What if he had said he had no DUI's and an investigation after the fact revealed he had 6 DUI's in another state?)

IMHO, fraud on the application is a very good reason to revoke the policy retroactively... which is completely different situation from no box to check or question asked about mods at the time the policy was issued.

(and even with fraud comitted by the insured, you'll notice the courts are not so quick to side with the insurer)

I get your point... but if you are right who decides what "modified" is? ANYTHING you do that is not 100% stock could be considered a "modification" and by the logic presented, grounds to retroactively cancel your policy after an accident. This is still America and I refuse to buy into that line of thinking.

As far as "how business is done"... I agree that if you expect reimbursement for added or modified equipment you sure as heck better disclose it. The insurance company has every right to charge an increased premium because the value of the property is higher. (if your $25,000 car with $40,000 in undisclosed mods is totalled, they certainly don't owe you the extra $40,000.)

But I don't believe that they have the right to deny coverage after an accident because you modified the vehicle unless all modifications are SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED in writing by your policy. (The only thing my auto policy says about modifications is that they limit payment to $1000 for any extras not included on the vehicle as delivered and which you did not disclose and pay an extra premium for)

I believe that buying into the thought that you need to ask for permission for any little mod is the "beginning of the end" when it comes to the freedom to enjoy working on your own car.

Want to play it safe? Ask for permission. I won't think any less of you. But remember that old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

[bstoner59]

The most important thing in the example quoted is the insured blatantly committed fraud on the application. (What if he had said he had no DUI's and an investigation after the fact revealed he had 6 DUI's in another state?)

IMHO, fraud on the application is a very good reason to revoke the policy retroactively... which is completely different situation from no box to check or question asked about mods at the time the policy was issued.

(and even with fraud comitted by the insured, you'll notice the courts are not so quick to side with the insurer)

I get your point... but if you are right who decides what "modified" is? ANYTHING you do that is not 100% stock could be considered a "modification" and by the logic presented, grounds to retroactively cancel your policy after an accident. This is still America and I refuse to buy into that line of thinking.

As far as "how business is done"... I agree that if you expect reimbursement for added or modified equipment you sure as heck better disclose it. The insurance company has every right to charge an increased premium because the value of the property is higher. (if your $25,000 car with $40,000 in undisclosed mods is totalled, they certainly don't owe you the extra $40,000.)

But I don't believe that they have the right to deny coverage after an accident because you modified the vehicle unless all modifications are SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED in writing by your policy. (The only thing my auto policy says about modifications is that they limit payment to $1000 for any extras not included on the vehicle as delivered and which you did not disclose and pay an extra premium for)

I believe that buying into the thought that you need to ask for permission for any little mod is the "beginning of the end" when it comes to the freedom to enjoy working on your own car.

Want to play it safe? Ask for permission. I won't think any less of you. But remember that old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

ya!! What he said!!

Another interesting point is this....when the insurance company looks up the VIN of a Raptor it comes up as a regular 4x4 F150. Using your logic of disclosing mods are't we all running the risk that we won't be covered because we didn't tell the insurance company that this particular F150 has "mods" compared to regular F150s? I don't think we are but I'm sure you can find an insurance company or lawyer that would argue that case if the money was right.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Good one B!

 

[Hockster]

I have a ? about insurance

I've had the same insurance company/policy(State Farm) since I started driving in 1993 and have never signed a single thing regarding a contract that I can recall, definitely not since turning 18(I'm going to ask my parent's if they signed anything or not almost 20 years ago). Now I've had 13 trucks and bikes on my policy and not one time have they asked me any questions regarding them besides the normal Vin #/milage/price ect. None of the truck's have ever been stock nor have I had to make any claims in those 17 years(luckily).

So my question is, will the Ins. company have a leg to stand on if they want to void my policy if I'm in an accident and as an adult I have not signed a contract with them, that is if they can legally not cover me due to my Mod's?

I can tell you that today things are different... My example of that is the insurance on my house. I built my place in northern Mi in 1989 and have had the same insurance since that day... Last Sept the company sent a representative out to look at the house... Within 5 days of him showing up at the door they sent me a cancellation notice with 2 reasons: 1. weak looking chimney. 2. No railing around the deck. I can understand the chimney since the winters have been rough on it but, the deck was there the day I had the insurance and never changed...
I called my rep and he said that since the insurance companies are in such trouble( his words not mine) they are checking places now and, in order to get my insurance reinstated I would have to make the repairs... He said that if I would have had a fire and the fire investigator said the cause was the chimney they would have denied my claim...
So lets say that you have your insurance on your truck, you have a accident and the investigator concludes that the cause was the changes you made the vehicle ( the removal of the swaybars) you better believe they will deny any claim that is made and you will be responsible... or lets say you removed the air bags and seat belts for what ever reason and you got into a accident.. the outcome would be the same denied claim... why dont you call a insurance company and ask them... dont call yours call another and tell them you have made some modifications to your truck and see if they will insure you...

 

[The Tank]

ya!! What he said!!

Another interesting point is this....when the insurance company looks up the VIN of a Raptor it comes up as a regular 4x4 F150. Using your logic of disclosing mods are't we all running the risk that we won't be covered because we didn't tell the insurance company that this particular F150 has "mods" compared to regular F150s? I don't think we are but I'm sure you can find an insurance company or lawyer that would argue that case if the money was right.

It really doesn't matter because when the VIN is run it some back with all the SVT parts so its still covered.

 

[BigJ]

The most important thing in the example quoted is the insured blatantly committed fraud on the application. (What if he had said he had no DUI's and an investigation after the fact revealed he had 6 DUI's in another state?)

But wait.... that example stood out to me because, according to the first court, he did NOT commit fraud. According to the court, the term "modified" was too ambiguous, and therefore did not cover tires and a lift specifically. This is an example where the insured won!

Of course, he's only won in principal at this point. Mercury has buried that ruling in appeals, and (to my knowledge) still hasn't paid a cent. If I had to guess, the insured will eventually win outright, and Mercury will be forced to pay. But that will be several years from now.

And, he'll win because of Mercury's use of the term "modified", NOT because adding a lift and tires voids insurance coverage. All Mercury need do is change their verbiage, and this will never happen again; the courts are not ruling on whether or not tires and a lift void your insurance... they're ruling on whether or not the term modified includes a lift and tires. That's one huge gaping big difference that can't be overlooked and should not be misunderstood.

I get your point... but if you are right who decides what "modified" is?

In this case, a judge, and the subsequent court of appeals.

As far as "how business is done"... I agree that if you expect reimbursement for added or modified equipment you sure as heck better disclose it....

But I don't believe that they have the right to deny coverage after an accident because you modified the vehicle unless all modifications are SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED in writing by your policy.

Ok. I don't disagree.

But that's not the world we live in. I know it sucks, but none the less its true.

Ever rented from a landlord? Ever leased a commercial building? Auto insurance is no different.

I get what you're trying to say Mark. Honestly I do. But I can't agree with it. If you and I come to terms on a contract, and you change the terms of that contract without telling me, I'm pissed.

Does removing a swaybar constitute a change to the terms of our agreement? In my opinion, yes. Maybe in your opinion, no. But to not even talk to me about it? How screwed is that? You aren't even giving me the opportunity to have an opinion. And that's not right, no matter how you slice it.

We shall see what the courts ultimately decide... but either way, next time I enter into a contract with you, or anyone else, I will be very sure to replace the term "modified" with much stricter verbiage that clearly states you cannot modify the vehicle from how it came from the factory. You screwed me by not telling me, so now I need to protect myself and draw up a 20 page document to make sure my verbiage is clear (ever signed a car lease? Ever bought a house? Sound familiar??)

And I can't at all agree with you in the whole "asking permission" concept. This is a free market (still). If you don't like the terms of one company, go with another! This isn't the government, where you have no other choice... these are companies competing for your business. Make them earn it! Remove your bar, call them up and say "if you want to keep my business, you'll add the swaybar removal note to my policy, you'll fax me a copy and you won't charge me one cent more". You're not asking permission in the slightest. You're saying "I'm doing this thing. Do you still want my business?" If they say no, move on and find someone who will!

Then, when you wreck and the new adjuster points at the missing sway and says "you voided your insurance..." you whip out that fax, say BS and get paid.

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Well, I'm back Your insurance thread has picked up again and BigJ asked me to stop by, read up and chime in. To expand briefly on the intro I was given in Post 75, I am the managing partner at one of the larger - and I would say the most mod-friendly - specialty auto insurance providers here in the U.S. To give you an example of how mod-friendly: I just approved an '04 Vette with a blower, **** injection, lambo doors, a five-figure paint job... the list of custom equipment was two pages and totalled 34 grand. Thats on top of the car's value, and its all paid as an Agreed Amount (as in ironclad, no wiggling). I'm the senior underwriter for our nationwide programs, I've designed the rate plans, written the policy language thats been filed and approved with the states, worked directly with the various state regulatory authorities, been involved with claims both in terms of investigations, repairs and payments... blah. blah. blah. Point being I know the business top to bottom both from the company and agent's perspective. Plus since I am an automotive enthusiast myself, and a regular on-track driver, I'm not just the owner of the hair club. I'm also a client.

You guys have covered a lot of ground here. If I were to try and quote posts and take it all in order, I'd exceed VBulletin's post length. Let me see if I can do this in bullet points. You guys can ask me specifics if I miss something. I'm accustomed to providing brand-neutral, *extremely candid* advice on insurance in forums and mailing lists so feel free to see if you can push a button or stump the chump.

1. If you fail to report vehicle modifications, you risk being bagged for material misrepresentation on the application. Those are the two magic words in pretty much every state of the Union, but they have different effects depending on the state you are in. We see in the excellent example BigJ linked that in Florida an insurer can actually walk entirely away from a claim. HOWEVER there also were not any third party injuries (or any injuries) (here's a video of that court session, by the way, taken from here. In the first five minutes you will learn a lot about the mindset about whats going on, and how the standards are arrived at. I encourage you to watch this.). If there are injuries to innocent third parties, some (not all) states will - by statute - dictate that you have either full coverage per the purchased policy - or (more commonly) *bare statutory minimum* coverages. Furthermore, the company may have the option to subrogate against you for those monies that they have to pay out. Minimum coverages may not cover your victims' losses so they may be suing you personally for full recovery. Not a pretty picture.
2. Yes you are making your life more difficult by telling the insurance company up front about your mods. They may freak and cancel you, or deny coverage. Thats life. Deal with it. If they handle it poorly you are with the wrong insurance company and need to go find another one. I'm sorry but this is what you get when you mod a car. No amount of creative reasoning will relieve you of your obligation to tell your contractual partner the whole story so they can decide whether or not to do business with you. Thats just the way it is and if you don't believe me, fine. You'll learn the hard way, then. But you were warned.

Looking at all this, you have to ask yourself ... is this any way to run a railroad? I mean, do you want to have insurance and then have to go thru this at the one time you need the insurance the most?

Just freaking be honest and you can skip all this drama.

 

[MingTheMerciless]

But wait.... that example stood out to me because, according to the first court, he did NOT commit fraud. According to the court, the term "modified" was too ambiguous, and therefore did not cover tires and a lift specifically. This is an example where the insured won!

BZZZ wrong answer

First of all, don't use the word 'fraud'. Its "Material misrepresentation" and thats no accidental choice of terms. Secondly, the court did indeed find he misrep'd the situation. As such he lost that argument entirely (on appeal). His attorneys had a multi-pronged strategy that then shifted to the agent's relationship to the company and asserted that the agent *was* the company and this put the company back on the hook.... a hook which they are off of otherwise.

If I were to guess, I'd say this is going to get settled out of court, with the agent's E&O policy eating some of the dirt, and the insurance company eating some. Right now the insurance company has what they want in one respect: BS on the app equalling a voiding of the contract in this circumstance has been affirmed. The last thing they want is for a separate decision that says some loose-cannon agent who isn't a straight shooter can put them on the hook for God knows what. So I'm thinking they'll take that out of the courts and settle.

 

[BigJ]

^^Ohh ok. My mistake. I'm no lawyer (obviously) so I shouldn't be trying to reinterpret legalese. Sorry for the misstep.

Despite my misunderstanding, if I understand you correctly in your previous post, the rest of my points are still valid?

Lets boil this down into simple terms:
Lets say you're my insurance carrier. Lets also say I call you up and said "Hey Ming, I want to remove my swaybar. As my insurance guy, are there any concerns or adjustments I need you to make to my policy? If so, lets talk about those issues and please quote me. If not, can I get you to add a note to my record that we've had this conversation, and that you gave me the thumbs up? Thanks!"

How might you respond, as the insurer on the hook?

 

[MagicMtnDan]