MingTheMerciless
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Yeah that wasn't written to clarify anything. It provides a nice big springboard for a lawsuit.
Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor
- Thread starter KaiserM715
- Start date
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MagicMtnDan
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If I got the info right in this fast-moving discussion correctly, Ming is saying there's no company that caters to offroad vehicle owners with modified vehicles. Is that correct? If so, it's mighty disappointing as the offroading community is pretty large but probably not concerned about insurance though, based on this thread, they should be very concerned since they tend to modify their vehicles heavily (we could really spin Ming's head around if we talked about mods the Jeepers make - they replace AXLES and everything attached to them!).
MarkT
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I spoke to my (independent) insurance agent today for about 30 minutes on this topic.
The "Cliff Notes" version:
He has never heard of a case where the insurer retroactively revoked the coverage (I think he called it "recission") after an accident due to a mod. He is going to check with his colleagues to see if they have heard of a case. (Note: I'm positive it has happened. Why? Because there are HUNDREDS of cases where insurance companies have denied coverage under innocuous circumstances... sometimes even against the law)
There is a difference between frau... ummm.. I mean "material misrepresentation" on the application for insurance and performing some kind of mod after the fact. They can revoke your policy for material misrepresentation but as you can see in the Florida case, even then Mercury seems to be fighting an uphill battle.
He personally has handled many claims where mods were performed. Lift kits, lowering kits, engine mods, etc. In no case was there even a mention of revoking the insurance. The big concern from the insurance provider? They would not pay for added equipment or mods that were not disclosed... so that $3000 you spent on a suspension kit? Gone.
His opinion was that if a vehicle was SERIOUSLY modified (as in full race) the insurance company would pay the claim but then cancel the policy. But even that might be difficult for them depending on your state law and the circumstances of the accident. In any case, the insurer would only pay you "actual cash value" for a STOCK vehicle. No coverage for the mods you made.
Bottom line: do not lie on your application and do not expect coverage for "added accessories" unless you tell the insurer about them and/or pay an additional premium to cover them.
OK now my thoughts:
If the advocates of "mod your truck, lose your insurance" are correct, then think about this:
If the insurance company could retroactively cancel your insurance by claiming you created a safety hazard when you removed your Raptor sway bar (they'd be wrong, but that's another debate), what would stop them from saying the same thing about the unsafe lane change you made in a completely stock vehicle?
Or let's say you're driving a bone stock vehicle but your BAC is WAY over the limit when you get into an accident. Are you saying the insurance company could say "you broke the law by driving drunk so we're cancelling your insurance and you have no coverage for the accident?"
Why would that be different than modifying your vehicle (perhaps even illegally modifying your vehicle)?
Or how about this? After the accident the insurance company investigates your background. They find you frequent a sports bar which is something they consider very risky behavior. You have never driven while under the influence. You had a 0 BAC at the time of the accident. And yet the insurance company sends you a letter stating they are retroactively cancelling your policy because you did not disclose to them that you frequent Sports Bars.
But you say "where does it say I need to disclose I frequent Sports Bars???"
EXACTLY.
How is that different from removing your sway bar? Removing a sway bar is not illegal but might be considered "risky behavior" by your insurance company.
My policy only says that any mods over $1000 will not be covered... which implies mods are OK. No other mention of my needing to disclose mods or changes to my vehicle are mentioned.
So, your choice.
1. Act in fear of what "might happen", hand over your freedom and get permission from your insurance company for every little mod...
or
2. Act knowledgeably, honestly, and responsibly and enjoy your freedom to mod while you still have it.
I choose "2".
My fear? If enough people choose "1", it won't be long before choice 2 will be nothing more than a faded memory of the "good ol' days".
The "Cliff Notes" version:
He has never heard of a case where the insurer retroactively revoked the coverage (I think he called it "recission") after an accident due to a mod. He is going to check with his colleagues to see if they have heard of a case. (Note: I'm positive it has happened. Why? Because there are HUNDREDS of cases where insurance companies have denied coverage under innocuous circumstances... sometimes even against the law)
There is a difference between frau... ummm.. I mean "material misrepresentation" on the application for insurance and performing some kind of mod after the fact. They can revoke your policy for material misrepresentation but as you can see in the Florida case, even then Mercury seems to be fighting an uphill battle.
He personally has handled many claims where mods were performed. Lift kits, lowering kits, engine mods, etc. In no case was there even a mention of revoking the insurance. The big concern from the insurance provider? They would not pay for added equipment or mods that were not disclosed... so that $3000 you spent on a suspension kit? Gone.
His opinion was that if a vehicle was SERIOUSLY modified (as in full race) the insurance company would pay the claim but then cancel the policy. But even that might be difficult for them depending on your state law and the circumstances of the accident. In any case, the insurer would only pay you "actual cash value" for a STOCK vehicle. No coverage for the mods you made.
Bottom line: do not lie on your application and do not expect coverage for "added accessories" unless you tell the insurer about them and/or pay an additional premium to cover them.
OK now my thoughts:
If the advocates of "mod your truck, lose your insurance" are correct, then think about this:
If the insurance company could retroactively cancel your insurance by claiming you created a safety hazard when you removed your Raptor sway bar (they'd be wrong, but that's another debate), what would stop them from saying the same thing about the unsafe lane change you made in a completely stock vehicle?
Or let's say you're driving a bone stock vehicle but your BAC is WAY over the limit when you get into an accident. Are you saying the insurance company could say "you broke the law by driving drunk so we're cancelling your insurance and you have no coverage for the accident?"
Why would that be different than modifying your vehicle (perhaps even illegally modifying your vehicle)?
Or how about this? After the accident the insurance company investigates your background. They find you frequent a sports bar which is something they consider very risky behavior. You have never driven while under the influence. You had a 0 BAC at the time of the accident. And yet the insurance company sends you a letter stating they are retroactively cancelling your policy because you did not disclose to them that you frequent Sports Bars.
But you say "where does it say I need to disclose I frequent Sports Bars???"
EXACTLY.
How is that different from removing your sway bar? Removing a sway bar is not illegal but might be considered "risky behavior" by your insurance company.
My policy only says that any mods over $1000 will not be covered... which implies mods are OK. No other mention of my needing to disclose mods or changes to my vehicle are mentioned.
So, your choice.
1. Act in fear of what "might happen", hand over your freedom and get permission from your insurance company for every little mod...
or
2. Act knowledgeably, honestly, and responsibly and enjoy your freedom to mod while you still have it.
I choose "2".
My fear? If enough people choose "1", it won't be long before choice 2 will be nothing more than a faded memory of the "good ol' days".
MarkT
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Or maybe there is no need for a specialty product because all this speculation and fear about "what might happen" has about a 0.0000023% chance of actually happening to someone who removes their Raptor sway bar?
BigJ
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Not sure how to respond to those questions. Hopefully Ming has some more time and can address them from a knowledgable perspective.
Speaking personally I feel I've made my argument well enough. No need to restate it again
Well maybe one last question... Is your insurance guy willing to say "no problem" in writing? If so, what's his number? Even though I don't plan to make this mod, no harm in covering my bases by investigating an insurer who's willing to commit to these sorts of things in writing
Speaking personally I feel I've made my argument well enough. No need to restate it again
Well maybe one last question... Is your insurance guy willing to say "no problem" in writing? If so, what's his number? Even though I don't plan to make this mod, no harm in covering my bases by investigating an insurer who's willing to commit to these sorts of things in writing
MarkT
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This is my last post on this topic... I promise...
J posted a quote from his "cop friend" that I agree with: the sway bar is not a safety device and it is not illegal to remove or modify.
But it was also said that removing a rear sway bar would probably be OK but not the front bar as that is what you need when you swerve... or something to that effect.
The reality is this: A sway bar is simply a suspension tuning device. It has the general effect of reducing the cornering traction on the end of the vehicle it is mounted on.
The way a sway bar is mounted, the size of the bar, the effective leverage, all determine how much the sway bar will effect the handling.
So let's say you remove a sway bar from the rear of a vehicle that was designed to have a fairly effective rear bar. Now try to swerve. Guess what? You turn the steering wheel and the car doesn't respond due to the heavy understeer removing the rear bar caused (more cornering traction at the rear)
So much for swerving. You're going to plow straight into the obstacle. (But Ralph Nader would be proud!)
If you did something to soften the rear suspension of the Raptor... like installing softer springs (Deavers)... you would increase the understeer.
The removal of the front bar could balance the handling perfectly.
Which is safer? A good handling truck? Or one that understeers excessively because someone was afraid of what "might happen" to their insurance if they removed a factory installed device?
'nuff said...
J posted a quote from his "cop friend" that I agree with: the sway bar is not a safety device and it is not illegal to remove or modify.
But it was also said that removing a rear sway bar would probably be OK but not the front bar as that is what you need when you swerve... or something to that effect.
The reality is this: A sway bar is simply a suspension tuning device. It has the general effect of reducing the cornering traction on the end of the vehicle it is mounted on.
The way a sway bar is mounted, the size of the bar, the effective leverage, all determine how much the sway bar will effect the handling.
So let's say you remove a sway bar from the rear of a vehicle that was designed to have a fairly effective rear bar. Now try to swerve. Guess what? You turn the steering wheel and the car doesn't respond due to the heavy understeer removing the rear bar caused (more cornering traction at the rear)
So much for swerving. You're going to plow straight into the obstacle. (But Ralph Nader would be proud!)
If you did something to soften the rear suspension of the Raptor... like installing softer springs (Deavers)... you would increase the understeer.
The removal of the front bar could balance the handling perfectly.
Which is safer? A good handling truck? Or one that understeers excessively because someone was afraid of what "might happen" to their insurance if they removed a factory installed device?
'nuff said...
bstoner59
does it come in shmedium?
I'm right there with you Mark!! Thanks for looking into that.
MarkT
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Not sure how to respond to those questions. Hopefully Ming has some more time and can address them from a knowledgable perspective.
Speaking personally I feel I've made my argument well enough. No need to restate it again
Well maybe one last question... Is your insurance guy willing to say "no problem" in writing? If so, what's his number? Even though I don't plan to make this mod, no harm in covering my bases by investigating an insurer who's willing to commit to these sorts of things in writing
OK one last post. See Ming's post. An agent generally cannot bind coverage so even if he would put it in writing it wouldn't do you any good. And an insurance underwriter is likely err on the side of caution and say no even if there is no good reason to say no. It's just not worth their time to research and take a chance...
Which begs a question. Did you ever get anything in writing from the underwriter regarding your Magnum mods?
BigJ
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Once I became aware of just how exposed I was (my bad for not investigating first, quite frankly), I relegated the car to track use only (and ordered the Raptor for daily duties). I was in the process of getting the proper coverage when I changed my mind and put the car up for sale. It sat in my garage with normal coverage until it sold. So yes the process was underway when I changed my plans. Had I kept the car it would have been fully and properly insured by now for both street and track use.
It really amazes me that on one hand you're seemingly so cavalier about doing these sorts of mods, but when even the slightest CYA effort is suggested the immediate response is 'well gee everybody says its ok but nobody is going to say so in writing' and that somehow makes sense. To me, that's one huge big freaking red flag... No body wants to be accountable should that .00000001% unthinkable situation occur. If it's such an impossibility, why so scared to say so in a form that matters to a judge and jury?
MagicMtnDan
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Which is safer? Good question. And while people can speculate about that it would take a variety of tests in a variety of conditions on and offroad to determine the answer to that and even then I suspect the answer wouldn't be clear.
What is clear is that installing aftermarket springs in the rear end and removing the sway bar up front are two big red flags to anyone looking at such a vehicle after an accident.
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