Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor

[BigJ]

Ok with me. Its an interesting topic though, so if anyone has a fresh perspective by all means offer it up.

PS: I've received a handful of PMs on this offering various thoughts. I'd love to see you guys participate in this thread. Don't be shy, and please don't mistake a lively debate for a bench clearing brawl. I wont speak for Mark (the most vocal of the 'other' side) but I'm perfectly comfortable most respectfully disagreeing with him on this. I still consider us buddies and I can't wait to get back out there with him and tear up some dirt! We don't have to agree on all points to respect one another and still call each other friends.

So jump in guys! This debate is a great example of what makes SVTO different; you can feel free to offer your opinion, disagree respectfully with others and you don't need to worry about getting your butt kicked by internet thuggery for the effort.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

I can't wait to get back out there with him and tear up some dirt!

Speaking of which, when is that going to happen?

Thanks to you and Mark and M-t-M and others who have kept this lively discussion going. There's a LOT of good information in this thread and I've seen other forums that don't have near as much useful info in all their threads.

 

[Madcowranch]

I have nothing intelligent on this subject to offer as usual BUT I've enjoyed reading both sides of this discussion.

 

[MingTheMerciless]

If I got the info right in this fast-moving discussion correctly, Ming is saying there's no company that caters to offroad vehicle owners with modified vehicles. Is that correct?

Thats pretty much it. Insofar as insuring the kind of customizations you put on the vehicles for their full value.

All the convoluted logic in the world won't change simple reality, and you don't have to like it. You either do it right or you roll the dice. If you figure you are a smart guy who can beat the system, I wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

As long as we are all doing endless postscripts: one thing you should NEVER do is take an agent's word on something. If I had a dollar for every insurance agent I ran into who was absolutely *clueless* about specialty autos... Well I'd have my bar tab finally paid off, thats for sure. Read the policy yourself. And find someone who does this stuff every day. For reals. Here's just one example: A guy buys a car and puts a fancy paint job on it. Five figures. He tells his agent. The agent gives him a rider and he pays money for the rider. Tells him its covered fully. Then the car gets dented up and the whole thing needs a repaint. Insurance company freaks out. Says the rider should only be used for classics. I'm advising him step by step as he goes along fighting with the company. Eventually they say they'll only pay for a fraction of the damage even though he has a rider that names a specific amount for the paint. I say "show me the policy" and I *actually read it* and understand it, which his agent never did. He was a "professional" with umpteen years in the business so of course he knew his stuff. So here's the relevant portion of the rider:



Item number two translated is "we'll pay whatever we feel like" (and since they had their own approved shops getting a bid they liked was easy). And thats not what the agent told the customer. That provision is not meant to cheat people. Its meant to protect the company from bogus estimates. But in this case, the guy got hosed since he didn't want to keep fighting.

You think that agent realized how bad he had screwed up when he made the mistake? You think that kind of screwup is uncommon? No. He was out of his box and out of his league. He made the typical, clueless, standard-market-agent mistake.

 

[MarkT]

Once I became aware of just how exposed I was (my bad for not investigating first, quite frankly), I relegated the car to track use only (and ordered the Raptor for daily duties). I was in the process of getting the proper coverage when I changed my mind and put the car up for sale. It sat in my garage with normal coverage until it sold. So yes the process was underway when I changed my plans. Had I kept the car it would have been fully and properly insured by now for both street and track use.

It really amazes me that on one hand you're seemingly so cavalier about doing these sorts of mods, but when even the slightest CYA effort is suggested the immediate response is 'well gee everybody says its ok but nobody is going to say so in writing' and that somehow makes sense. To me, that's one huge big freaking red flag... No body wants to be accountable should that .00000001% unthinkable situation occur. If it's such an impossibility, why so scared to say so in a form that matters to a judge and jury?

The only concern my agent had regarding mods was that if you wanted the cost of your extra parts covered, you needed to get them added to the policy. Curiously, if you read your expert Ming's last post, it is focused 100% on the same concern... he wants to make sure you get reimbursed for the extra money you spent on the paint job in his example...

I have said the same thing over and over... if you add extras and don't report them (and possibly pay a higher premium) you can't expect the insurance company to pay you for them after a loss.

That's not what's being debated. The claim has been made that should you get into an accident and you have modified the performance of your vehicle, the insurance company will void your insurance and you will be left to fend for yourself. No coverage at all for the accident. I have not seen this concern expressed by the experts (Ming and my agent).

(EDIT- I forgot about the post where Ming implied that not disclosing a mod to your insurance is a criminal act... but there still hasn't been any proof that modifying your suspension would void your insurance or be a criminal act... or statistics on how often it happens and under what specific circumstances.)

The only "proof" given was actually a case of "material misrepresentation" on an application for insurance and where the only injured party was the guy who made a material misrepresentation when he applied for the policy... and even then the insurance company has been on the losing side in court so far.

And there are MILLIONS of vehicles on the road with modified suspensions and I'd bet most are undisclosed. I think if there was even a slight risk of finding yourself uninsured for an accident it would be fairly easy to find solid proof.

I believe that in this case, all the evidence points to one thing. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. I believe the chances of finding yourself uninsured due to an undisclosed mod are insignificantly small. In my opinion it's only the fear that's big.

As far as getting something in writing from the insurance company underwriter? It's not a matter of them being scared to do it. You simply aren't likely to get anywhere by asking permission to do something... they simply are not experts or engineers. The answer will be "no". (see Ming's earlier response)

If you are hell-bent on CYA and disclosure, maybe try a different approach??? You would not ask the insurance company for approval in writing for "oversize wheels and tires with a 10mm increase positive offset which will add unsprung weight, affect the handling, and increase the stopping distance". You would simply disclose "$2000 in aftermarket wheels"

...Perhaps you could send a letter disclosing $50 for a "front sway bar kit"??? (the cost of removing the sway bar and bolting two small aluminum plates to the frame where it mounted). Tell them about your lights and maybe the "sensor guards" for the rear axle, an added radio, air compressor, etc at the same time (if you have them). And now you have "proof of disclosure" if you really think you need it.

The other choices I see are to trust your insurance agent and company will treat you right in case of an accident (my choice) or don't ever make ANY mods.

 

[A.I.I.Raciing]

I'm assuming that if your truck is stolen and have not disclosed your Mod's you will not be paid regardless if you have receipts or not?

 

[BigJ]

Mark I'm not in a position to sufficiently respond tonite, but I will be glad to tomorrow. I turned up some eye opening "proof" today you might find interesting

But real quickly, I think you nailed the 180degree difference in our arguments when you said "The other choices I see are to trust your insurance agent and company will treat you right in case of an accident (my choice) or don't ever make ANY mods."

Trust... Nope. Not when it comes to my financial freedom and future. In my opinion he who trusts an insurance company as you suggest is begging for a world of hurt. It's not a matter of 'if' you're going to get screwed, it's a matter of 'when'

Until tomorrow then...

 

[MarkT]

Mark I'm not in a position to sufficiently respond tonite, but I will be glad to tomorrow. I turned up some eye opening "proof" today you might find interesting

But real quickly, I think you nailed the 180degree difference in our arguments when you said "The other choices I see are to trust your insurance agent and company will treat you right in case of an accident (my choice) or don't ever make ANY mods."

Trust... Nope. Not when it comes to my financial freedom and future. In my opinion those who trust an insurance company as you suggest is begging for a world of hurt. It's not a melatter of 'if' you're going to get screwed, it's a matter of 'when'

Until tomorrow then...

Looking forward to it... and to clarify... I don't trust blindly... "trust but verify"... which is why I'm engaged in this exchange. So far, the proof that a non-disclosed mod to a sway bar will void your insurance just isn't there. Maybe that will change tomorrow.

In any case, I have not modded my Raptor suspension or engine so I don't need to worry.

 

[BigJ]

Looking forward to it... and to clarify... I don't trust blindly... "trust but verify"... which is why I'm engaged in this exchange. So far, the proof that a non-disclosed mod to a sway bar will void your insurance just isn't there. Maybe that will change tomorrow.

I understand that. And perhaps our definitions of "blind" are different; my experience has taught me if you don't have it in writing, you've got nothing and you're therefore "blind". So that's always my bottom line; all the promises in the world make no difference to me... commit to it in writing, and now we can talk.

Ok as for some "proof", I should say I hesitate to use that term. The best I can do is show examples that are seemingly contrary to your position. I leave it to the reader to judge if this is "proof" of one side or the other. In my opinion, if I'm the reader, even one example is enough to make me question the wisdom of modifying my suspension, and even if I decide the "risks" are worth the reward, one example would push me to communicate with my insurer and GET IT IN WRITING. To that end...

I've joined and asked for help from another forum that is chalk full of lawyers, legal experts and actual professional accident investigators (hired by either the insurance companies or by citizens trying to protect themselves). Hopefully I'll have some more info from them soon, with specific examples of cases brought and decided either way.

In the mean time, here's some info we should all be aware of:

"Off-Road" magazine just this month ran a story addressing these very questions. Here's the link to the online article. Read it. I'll wait...

Here are the quotes I find most on point with our discussion. All bolding is emphasis added by me.

The legality of off-road vehicle modifications varies significantly from state to state and this disparity causes much confusion to off-road enthusiasts. Street-legal laws range from practically non-existent in some states to extremely restrictive in others. Additionally, the degree to which these laws are enforced can vary depending on the county in which the vehicle is driven and a police officer's interpretation of the law. Ultimately, the consequences of violating such laws can be as minor as a verbal warning or as severe as being refused coverage by an auto insurance company after an accident.

Another risk of driving a vehicle that has been modified for off-road use is the unexpected loss of auto insurance coverage in the event of an accident. This is a very easy thing to avoid, yet, it is all too often overlooked. Drivers should never assume that their insurance company allows for vehicle modifications, because the consequences of being denied coverage can be severe.

Luckily, all one has to do to avoid such a nightmare is to call their auto insurance provider and make sure that all vehicle modifications are allowed under the policy.

And perhaps the most on-point of all...Anyone out there who's removed their sway have Nationwide as their insurer?? Pay attention... :shock1:

Nationwide indicates that it does not offer coverage on vehicles with any suspension alterations. Esurance and Progressive both stated that they allow suspension lifts as long as they do not exceed 4 inches. State Farm said that it is perfectly fine with owners' modifying their vehicles, while Farmers will even provide extended coverage on any aftermarket equipment used to modify the vehicle. The key to making sure a vehicle is fully insured under an auto insurance policy is to be completely honest and up front with the insurance provider.

All modifications, even those that comply with state laws, can still be considered a violation if they are not installed correctly. Each state has a catch-all rule that requires all vehicle equipment to be safe.

So I spent some time on LiftLaws.com. You should too. Bookmark it, even. Very very interesting stuff... I pulled the following excerpts from various sections about various mods:

Regarding beadlocks:

The worst possible scenario is having a beadlock fail on the road resulting in a severe accident. Lawyers for an injured party will inspect the vehicle for aftermarket parts and equipment modifications to build their case against the driver. The best defense in the event of an accident is a solid insurance company and insurance policy. Anytime modifications are made to a vehicle they should be brought to the attention of the insurance company to make sure that insurance coverage remains in full effect

But as if to demonstrate how tricky things can get, if you look at California's law regarding on highway wheel (and therefore beadlock) use

California's vehicle code does not reference wheels, however, they do need to be safe for highway use.

So who decides what "safe" is? Your lawyer? Your experts? The prosecutor's experts? The civil suit lawyer and their experts? The judge or jury presiding over the cases? No answer to that...

Regarding "suspensions", which is the category I think we can include the removal of a swaybar in, several states have no specific laws on the books regarding modifications. That would seem to support Mark's position. However, then you come to Colorado...

In Colorado, it is illegal to drive a vehicle with the front or rear suspension system altered or changed from the manufacturer's original design. Heavy duty springs and shock absorbers are allowed to be installed.

I don't know about you, but that right there is a show stopper. In no uncertain terms the law says you cannot alter or change the manufacturer's original design. If you do, you've *potentially* violated not just the general "unsafe" law all states seem to have, but you've definitely violated the state law that specifically says 'no'.

In my opinion, I think swaybar removal falls within the general "cannot be unsafe" law all states seem to have (the catchall Ming spoke of before, except this is state law, not just some insurance policy) (and yes, I totally understand that removing a swaybar may not be "unsafe"... just be prepared to defend that position in a court of law, facing down X 'experts' hired by the prosecutor and/or civil lawyer and/or insurance agency on the other side who do say its "unsafe"). But even so, it looks like some states have a specific restriction against making any changes from the OEM design. So you're doubly screwed in those states, and you'll never even get the chance to try and prove it was a safe thing to do.

Thoughts on all that? Opinions?

In any case, I have not modded my Raptor suspension or engine so I don't need to worry.

Ditto

 

[Madcowranch]

In Colorado, it is illegal to drive a vehicle with the front or rear suspension system altered or changed from the manufacturer's original design. Heavy duty springs and shock absorbers are allowed to be installed.

Wow, there are a whole lotta people breaking the law in Colorado.