What oil? - The one and only oil thread

[Boss Hoss]

~ 30 years ago . . . umm ... No

Your statement stands correct about 'Start-Up' --- And that would apply too, . .

- Since the inception of the internal combustion engine -
----------->
Way back . . . way,way back --- detergent, muti-viscosity, surfactants,
& anti-oxidant/anti-wear properties in oils were limited to non-existent.

30 years ago yes---I was speaking about the internal tolerances of the engines needing the 0-20 for example over the higher oil weights used in vehicles in the early 80"s like 15-50.

 

[Stepside]

Internal tolerances? . . there is not that much difference that a molecule of 15w will not provide lubrication.
Now let's get real .. (and I knew how to 'index & stroke correct' a crankshaft on a Van Norman machine in the 70s)

The reason that FORD and all American Mfgs. specify 5w-20 is to satisfy the CAFE standards.
The thinner oils will outperform on a 96 hour test (new engine) for Fuel Economy.
But, over the life of the engine?? There will be less wear at the end of 100k using a 15w-40 (except in extreme cold envoironments) than with that "weasal ****" 5w-20 or what I call - 'The Warranty Oil' - to satisfy ... 'Uncle cracker Sam' in his infinite wisdom to regulate everything out of existence. There were also, new rules regarding 'cold-flow' requirerments implemented in 2001.
Note: 15w-40 mineral base, not synthetic, has a higher API rating than full synthetic 'weasel ****' 5w-20 warranty oil.

The American Mfg is trying to gain fuel economy and longevity to the catalytic converter.(and satisfy CAFE aka Corporate Average Fuel Economy) And it is not clear wheather of not the larger amount of anti-wear additive in the 15w-40 is actually detrimental to the converter.
The thin oils do not have the same amount of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate.

With that being said, lets get down to tolerances.
How much clearence between Bearing & Journal is there with the 'weasel ****' warranty oil as opposed to the big 80s oil when things start to heat-up?
Well, when abrasive particles become bigger than the oil film thickness, the engine with the 5w-20 will receive the Wear.
Note: When a polymer oil aka muti-viscosity gets squished between the bearing & journal the molecules will tend to align in the polymer and the viscosity of the oil will drop.
So, since thicker oils accomodate larger particles aka contaminates . . . under dusty dirty, towing, overly hot days, there will be less wear with the 15w-40, which has a higher API rating & more anti-wear additive.
The viscosity or film thickness of 5w-20 at 190*F to 200*F is about the same as 15w-40 is at about 240*F to 250*F. Now, how is that oil film thickness of the 5w-20 when it is at 240*F to 250*F. - Like weasel ****.
So, over the life of the engine . . I'll stick with the Group III as opposed to the CAFE 5w-20 oil
that Ford does Not recommend once you leave the boarders of America.
Say thank you to Uncle Sam for regulating Corporate to regulate our beliefs.[/FONT]

 

[DirtNasty]

Agreed and Oh my this is funny----maybe 30 years ago but motors now are built to much closer tolerances now. Most of the wear is caused during start up Period---do the research and you will be up to speed.

I use Amsoil 0-20 in mine.

Yeah im thinking of going 0-20w in mine after this next change with the canton mecca oil filter. I figure since it has no bypass it wouldnt be a bad idea to give it something a bit lighter at non warmed up temps.

---------- Post added at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 AM ----------

Internal tolerances? . . there is not that much difference that a molecule of 15w will not provide lubrication.
Now let's get real .. (and I knew how to 'index & stroke correct' a crankshaft on a Van Norman machine in the 70s)

The reason that FORD and all American Mfgs. specify 5w-20 is to satisfy the CAFE standards.
The thinner oils will outperform on a 96 hour test (new engine) for Fuel Economy.
But, over the life of the engine?? There will be less wear at the end of 100k using a 15w-40 (except in extreme cold envoironments) than with that "weasal ****" 5w-20 or what I call - 'The Warranty Oil' - to satisfy ... 'Uncle cracker Sam' in his infinite wisdom to regulate everything out of existence. There were also, new rules regarding 'cold-flow' requirerments implemented in 2001.
Note: 15w-40 mineral base, not synthetic, has a higher API rating than full synthetic 'weasel ****' 5w-20 warranty oil.

The American Mfg is trying to gain fuel economy and longevity to the catalytic converter.(and satisfy CAFE aka Corporate Average Fuel Economy) And it is not clear wheather of not the larger amount of anti-wear additive in the 15w-40 is actually detrimental to the converter.
The thin oils do not have the same amount of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate.

With that being said, lets get down to tolerances.
How much clearence between Bearing & Journal is there with the 'weasel ****' warranty oil as opposed to the big 80s oil when things start to heat-up?
Well, when abrasive particles become bigger than the oil film thickness, the engine with the 5w-20 will receive the Wear.
Note: When a polymer oil aka muti-viscosity gets squished between the bearing & journal the molecules will tend to align in the polymer and the viscosity of the oil will drop.
So, since thicker oils accomodate larger particles aka contaminates . . . under dusty dirty, towing, overly hot days, there will be less wear with the 15w-40, which has a higher API rating & more anti-wear additive.
The viscosity or film thickness of 5w-20 at 190*F to 200*F is about the same as 15w-40 is at about 240*F to 250*F. Now, how is that oil film thickness of the 5w-20 when it is at 240*F to 250*F. - Like weasel ****.
So, over the life of the engine . . I'll stick with the Group III as opposed to the CAFE 5w-20 oil
that Ford does Not recommend once you leave the boarders of America.
Say thank you to Uncle Sam for regulating Corporate to regulate our beliefs.[/FONT]

Just curious but what is your background on this topic?

Also are you trying to say that dino oil @ heavier weights is better because contaminates in the oil stream provide more passage for oil when crammed between two surfaces? (that is how i read what you said)

 

[Stepside]

Let's get something clear with 'tighter' or 'closer' tolerances.
There is a range specification on engine components during assembly.

Today, the range is closer or more consistent with the other engine components specifing the same clearance or range . . In other words, the range is tighter; Not the distance between two disimilar metals.

So, this notion of the metals being closer, is misinterpreted as, closer metal to metal, when the range thru automated computer technolgy is more consistent aka closer.

Reread what I wrote.
The synthetic molecule of oil provides for higher heat, better wear when compared to a Group II oil.
15w-40 is a Group III oil and it can be mineral base or part synthetic.
The full synthetics are Group IV oil or above. You pay extra $$ for that molecule.
Now, look at your API rating.
Is your 0w-20 or 5w-20 have a better API Rating than my 15w-40 mineral base oil??
The Answer is ---- NO. .. Actually, the oil you use has a lower rating . . And your 0w or 5w-20 has less ZDDP in it. The crucial anti-wear ingredient.
But, your oil will last longer because it is more resistant to breakdown.
It is a matter of "how long between oil changes"
Marketing can be deceptive.
As for Me - Graduate of 2 different schools for Automotive Mechanics/Technology. One of the schools, we were running, at one point in time, 2 tenths of a second under national record for SS/I class in Drag Racing; went on for the Bachelor; raised in a Family Excavation Company. My brother, now 71, was one of the 1st people in the USA to put Tubochargers on Cummins Diesel Engines. The engineers at Cummins were thrilled, because they were try to get management to go that way. Needless to say, those guys advised my brother and I learned from him and some of the Teachers/Race Guys of that era.
"Not in to it", anymore .. .. I have forgotten .. . so much.

 

[PropDr]

Let's get something clear with 'tighter' or 'closer' tolerances.
There is a range specification on engine components during assembly.

Today, the range is closer or more consistent with the other engine components specifing the same clearance or range . . In other words, the range is tighter; Not the distance between two disimilar metals.

So, this notion of the metals being closer, is misinterpreted as, closer metal to metal, when the range thru automated computer technolgy is more consistent aka closer.

Reread what I wrote.
The synthetic molecule of oil provides for higher heat, better wear when compared to a Group II oil.
15w-40 is a Group III oil and it can be mineral base or part synthetic.
The full synthetics are Group IV oil or above. You pay extra $$ for that molecule.
Now, look at your API rating.
Is your 0w-20 or 5w-20 have a better API Rating than my 15w-40 mineral base oil??
The Answer is ---- NO. .. Actually, the oil you use has a lower rating . . And your 0w or 5w-20 has less ZDDP in it. The crucial anti-wear ingredient.
But, your oil will last longer because it is more resistant to breakdown.
It is a matter of "how long between oil changes"
Marketing can be deceptive.
As for Me - Graduate of 2 different schools for Automotive Mechanics/Technology. One of the schools, we were running, at one point in time, 2 tenths of a second under national record for SS/I class in Drag Racing; went on for the Bachelor; raised in a Family Excavation Company. My brother, now 71, was one of the 1st people in the USA to put Tubochargers on Cummins Diesel Engines. The engineers at Cummins were thrilled, because they were try to get management to go that way. Needless to say, those guys advised my brother and I learned from him and some of the Teachers/Race Guys of that era.
"Not in to it", anymore .. .. I have forgotten .. . so much.

You omitted to address the oils second, but no less important, function: Cooling!
The oil provides cooling for all the internal moving parts.
If you increase the viscosity to the point that your flow drops below minimum requirement for cooling things get hot quick.
Our oil pumps are positive displacement pumps, for every revolution there is a set quantity of oil pumped (purposely not addressing leak by for simplicity of explanation)
The higher the viscosity the higher the resistance to flow the higher the pressure buildup; if the pressure exceeds max allowable the relieve valve opens and flow is diverted back to sump.
You need to know the quantity of flow required for proper cooling.
Also, if an engine uses oil to cool the underside of the pistons make sure that you know the viscosity at operating temperature required to the provide the proper quantity of oil at a given pressure.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Internal tolerances? . . there is not that much difference that a molecule of 15w will not provide lubrication.
Now let's get real .. (and I knew how to 'index & stroke correct' a crankshaft on a Van Norman machine in the 70s)

The reason that FORD and all American Mfgs. specify 5w-20 is to satisfy the CAFE standards.
The thinner oils will outperform on a 96 hour test (new engine) for Fuel Economy.
But, over the life of the engine?? There will be less wear at the end of 100k using a 15w-40 (except in extreme cold envoironments) than with that "weasal ****" 5w-20 or what I call - 'The Warranty Oil' - to satisfy ... 'Uncle cracker Sam' in his infinite wisdom to regulate everything out of existence. There were also, new rules regarding 'cold-flow' requirerments implemented in 2001.
Note: 15w-40 mineral base, not synthetic, has a higher API rating than full synthetic 'weasel ****' 5w-20 warranty oil.

The American Mfg is trying to gain fuel economy and longevity to the catalytic converter.(and satisfy CAFE aka Corporate Average Fuel Economy) And it is not clear wheather of not the larger amount of anti-wear additive in the 15w-40 is actually detrimental to the converter.
The thin oils do not have the same amount of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate.

With that being said, lets get down to tolerances.
How much clearence between Bearing & Journal is there with the 'weasel ****' warranty oil as opposed to the big 80s oil when things start to heat-up?
Well, when abrasive particles become bigger than the oil film thickness, the engine with the 5w-20 will receive the Wear.
Note: When a polymer oil aka muti-viscosity gets squished between the bearing & journal the molecules will tend to align in the polymer and the viscosity of the oil will drop.
So, since thicker oils accomodate larger particles aka contaminates . . . under dusty dirty, towing, overly hot days, there will be less wear with the 15w-40, which has a higher API rating & more anti-wear additive.
The viscosity or film thickness of 5w-20 at 190*F to 200*F is about the same as 15w-40 is at about 240*F to 250*F. Now, how is that oil film thickness of the 5w-20 when it is at 240*F to 250*F. - Like weasel ****.
So, over the life of the engine . . I'll stick with the Group III as opposed to the CAFE 5w-20 oil
that Ford does Not recommend once you leave the boarders of America.
Say thank you to Uncle Sam for regulating Corporate to regulate our beliefs.[/FONT]

Hmmmmm well let's see if my oil uses PAO Stocks and it does not have the Shearing issues that your Group III does then that kind of complicates things a bit. I use Amsoil 0-20 Signature in this truck but the oil question is a lot more complex than than just what weight is used.

Personally have been using PAO base stock oils for at least 25 years and before that Mobil 1 in 1979. Man did that oil clean out an engine (66 Stang 289) that had only had non detergent oil in it before lol...

 

[TBONE21]

I just put in it what Ford calls for. I have 5 years of extended warranty so I am doing what they say when it comes to weight. I run Mobil 1 syn and run the Ford racing oil filter.

Thats what I am running and plan to keep running.

 

[MTGOAT]

I probably can't add too much to this except from experience. Ive been running 0w40 in my 2006 GTO with a 6.0L motor for 70K miles. It has never given me a hint of issues and like someone pointed out, Benz runs this weight in all of their motors. I only know this because my Brother-in-law is a mechanic there and he has taken great care of my ride through the years.

Again, im not a mechanical engineer, this has just been my experience. I will most likely be using Mobil 1 0W40 in the Raptor when the time comes. Plus I get it for FREE so I cant complain.

 

[TBONE21]

You guys doing your own oil changes - what documents you keeping to prove to ford the oil changes are being done in case of a warranty issue.

Im saving all my receipts and writing date and mileage down in my notebook. I keep a detailed log just in case there is a warranty issue.

 

[willis68]

I always get mine changed at my dealer while the maintenance plan is in effect, Mobil 1 is now in her with Ford Racing filter
next will be Amsoil and Amsoil filter from now on and my dealership keeps my warranty going as long as i supply them with the high quality oils that i have been doing