Swaybar Disconnects - Ford Raptor

[Xjrguy]

Ehrm... as far as I know, he aint come close to rolling over yet, Mr. Founding-Member-of-the-Almost-Flipped-my-Raptor-Gang.

I am going to venture a guess Brian may not drive on the street like Dan or I do.

There is a ton more grip on the Tarmac vs. The desert. They don't test rollover statistics in the sand, do they?

Hey I know a way to end this **** talking once and for all.

All the guys disconnecting the sway bar put your money where your mouth is.

Bring the truck to an on road and off road track with the sway bars disconnected vs another truck with them connected.

We will see whose truck turns over first during emergency maneuvers and/or high speed driving with abrupt turns.

 

[The Tank]

I get that. But it's still a very customized vehicle AND you're still comparing apples to grapes (there's almost no comparison between a rally car and a Raptor - well, they do have four wheels, doors, motors and transmissions...).

Yes but they carry a lot of speed through corners and run some really big sway bars to maintain control of that speed.

 

[MarkT]

IMHO, Most of what is written on the Internet and even in some books about "sway bars" is total B.S.

**First general rule of handling: the end of the vehicle with the most weight transfer loses traction in a corner first.**

Without messing with mounting points, geometry, tires, shocks, etc... there are two ways to change the weight transfer characteristics (and therefore the cornering handling) of a vehicle.

1. Change the spring rates of the suspension
2. Add, remove, or change a weight transfer device commonly called a "sway bar"

To fine-tune the handling without any change to the body roll characteristics:

For more oversteer, you would add more weight transfer to the rear suspension (by increasing the roll stiffness at the rear) and take an equal amount of weight transfer from the front suspension (by reducing the roll stiffness at the front).

For more understeer, you would do the opposite- add more weight transfer to the front suspension, and take an equal amount of weight transfer from the rear.

So how does this apply to the Raptor? Ford could have installed higher rate front springs and left off the front sway bar and had the exact same weight transfer and cornering handling on smooth pavement.... but higher rate springs would have effected the resistance of the suspension when the wheel hit a bump... perhaps not good.

So maybe that's why Ford added a (small) sway bar to the front which adds weight transfer to the front while cornering which increases the tendency towards UNDERSTEER.

Removing the front sway bar will remove some weight transfer at the front so if everything else remains the same, removal will make the Raptor tend towards more OVERSTEER.

That's it. The sway bar is simply a device used to alter the weight transfer characteristics of the suspension and therefore the handling of the vehicle. It has it's pros and cons, but is a valuable tool. (One of the cons has already been mentioned... it reduces the ability of the suspension to act independently...)

I would not hesitate to remove the front sway bar on my Raptor except for one thing... My Raptor already has a strong tendency towards oversteer! I'm concerned about the HANDLING, I'm not worried at all about "rolling over".

Mark

P.S. Perhaps the "rollover" confusion comes from the terms used... like the name "anti-roll bar"... but just know that the tendency of a vehicle to roll has FAR more to do with many other factors than the "sway bar"!

P.P.S. Rally cars have been mentioned... you could also mentioned road race cars... there are two schools of thought for both: "Soft springs and heavy sway bars" vs. "Stiff springs and light sway bars". You can find examples of each design that have won many races both on road and off.

 

[Xjrguy]

Anyone want to arm wrestle?

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Nosir. But I do have a very good friend who owns a premium car insurance company (classic and hot rods). If anyone knows, he will. I'll ask.

We do high end exotics too, J. . And nowadays we do full-on race cars and old Jeeps and tanks (seriously) and all kinds of crazy stuff.

Moving right along, BigJ asked me to come over, read the whole thread and say what I think as a guy who is involved pretty deeply in modded cars ... and also fairly deeply in the safety/litigation end -- when things go tragically wrong.

Here's the short version: xjrguy is dead on in warning you that there can be horrific financial consequences to your actions. It may never happen. You may get away with it. It might be fine. But if it isn't... its your ass because you decided to become an automotive design engineer. You took a car that had millions upon millions of dollars invested in its design and safety testing and decided you knew better than the manufacturer. So if what you did goes bad, you as the designer bear the blame.

I don't know the first thing about off-roading in a specialty truck like the Raptor... although I will admit to drooling some over J's. But thats it. This isn't about whether the mod is good for its intended purpose. I'm sure it is. Unfortunately that doesn't matter when it comes to paying for the consequences. Here are a couple of scenarios:

I'll create the first one from a real-life incident thats fairly well known. All I will do is make the situation an off-road incident instead of what it originally was. The manufacturer in the real incident was also not Ford:

1. You and your buddy are offroad and bombing down a sandy trail and having a ball. One thing leads to another and the vehicle rolls. Your buddy is killed. His surviving wife (he has children who are deprived of an income earner) sues you, Ford, and the owner of the land. Naturally an investigation has revealed the lack of sway bars and Ford moves to be separated from the case because you modified the suspension and, in their words, 'made the vehicle unsafe for the circumstances'. First of all, congratulations. The vehicle manufacturer just gave an expert opinion that throws you under the bus insofar as liability is concerned. Next, if that motion is granted you lose a really deep set of pockets, and if its denied figure that Ford's proportion of liability in the judgment could go from maybe 50% to 5% (in the real world this is exactly what happened). Guess who gets stuck with the 45% that Ford would have paid? You for at least part of it and probably the majority given the circumstances. (edit: I forgot... the club/forum hosting or promoting the event also gets sued).

2. You are driving down the street and for whatever reason you need to make a sudden emergency maneuver. It goes wrong and you hit a pedestrian and severe injury results. The truck is examined and the re-engineering is discovered, which affects the vehicle's handling. Of the opposing attorney and the court case, I will only say the victim's attorney has a field day with you. You will lose. The really ugly part is this: Since you modified a vehicle and didn't report the modification to your insurance company, you have created the *potential* for the insurance company to claim a material misrepresentation on your part. If they had known of the mod, they might not have insured the vehicle at all. Now, in almost all states this will not relieve the insurance company of the need to make the person you injured whole again. I know of no state that would allow an uninsured motorist to be created when there is an injured, innocent bystander who needs care. However, The insurance company can now weigh whether or not they should come back after you personally for the damages they had to pay, since you breached the insurance contract by failing to disclose the mod (whether you did in fact breach the contract depends on the wording on the insurance application you filled out and signed).

OK so those are a couple of boo-hoo scary-scary examples. Will it happen to you? Probably not. Can it? Absolutely. Don't be stupid and blow off the possibility. Do the mod smart. Figure out if its safe, when its safe and when its not. Make sure it works right (can't come disco'd on the street, for example). Do your homework. If possible, buy a product from someone who sells it so if someone sues you they will also sue the parts manufacturer's product liability policy. And again... don't blow this off. You are a vehicle safety engineer now. Its your ass on the line.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Kudos to:

Ming The Merciless
BigJ

and our resident scare-the-****-out-of-you-with-real-world-scenarios-involving-lawyers, XJRguy (Tim)

Special mention goes to the zillions of lawyers who are always on the prowl for a money-making opportunity.

Welcome to the forum MTM. That was a helluva first post! What're you gonna do for your next act?

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Run and hide

I wish I had the garage space (never mind the play money in the first place) for a Raptor myself. But I've already gotten bit by one automotive hobby and it sucks the life out of my wallet as it is. Drove on a race track once and that was it. I'm an addict. Will work for tires. Thats me.

 

[MarkT]

How many are contemplating changing the tires or wheels?

Those common mods have a lot of potential to "adversely change the handling characteristics".... and if the tires and wheels you select aren't specifically listed for the Raptor, the manufacturer will again, put it all back on you. (both Ford and the manufacturer of the wheel)

Or how about adding a hard tonneau? That weight added to the top of the bed could certainly create more body roll or changes to handling...

But the biggest problem I have with "warnings" is the whole "blame game". If you screw up, take the blame. Period. Just because Ford has deep pockets shouldn't make them liable for MY screw up.

Raptors don't have rear sway bars... other vehicles do! Should we all sue Ford? We must be twice as likely to roll over as an H2 or other vehicle with two sway bars! (sarcasm intended) In other words, compare apples to apples and the only valid comparison here is Raptor v. Raptor with and without front sway bar. A skid pad (or large parking lot) and a camera would end the debate. :mrgreen:

Seriously, pretty much everything we do in life has risks... and everyone has to weigh those risks against the benefits. Stay at home in bed and hope the roof doesn't fall in on you... or do the research, weigh the risks, and live a little...



P.S. on the wheels: I was in a vehicle that had an aftermarket "performance" wheel fail while taking a corner at speed. Not an experience I'd care to repeat! I'd be much more cautious about changing wheels on my Raptor than a sway bar mod...

 

[bstoner59]

What if you hit your light switch on the road for the 8,000,000 candle power and the oncoming car runs off the road and the whole family dies...that's you the driver of the Raptor with 8,000,000 candle power that is liable.

This is fun can we start a new "what if" thread...

 

[bstoner59]

how many are contemplating changing the tires or wheels?

Those common mods have a lot of potential to "adversely change the handling characteristics".... And if the tires and wheels you select aren't specifically listed for the raptor, the manufacturer will again, put it all back on you. (both ford and the manufacturer of the wheel)

or how about adding a hard tonneau? That weight added to the top of the bed could certainly create more body roll or changes to handling...

But the biggest problem i have with "warnings" is the whole "blame game". If you screw up, take the blame. Period. Just because ford has deep pockets shouldn't make them liable for my screw up.

Raptors don't have rear sway bars... Other vehicles do! Should we all sue ford? We must be twice as likely to roll over as an h2 or other vehicle with two sway bars! (sarcasm intended) in other words, compare apples to apples and the only valid comparison here is raptor v. Raptor with and without front sway bar. A skid pad (or large parking lot) and a camera would end the debate. :mrgreen:

Seriously, pretty much everything we do in life has risks... And everyone has to weigh those risks against the benefits. Stay at home in bed and hope the roof doesn't fall in on you... Or do the research, weigh the risks, and live a little...



P.s. On the wheels: I was in a vehicle that had an aftermarket "performance" wheel fail while taking a corner at speed. Not an experience i'd care to repeat! I'd be much more cautious about changing wheels on my raptor than a sway bar mod...

amen!!