Made in china?

[The Car Stereo Company]

at least someone knew what he was talking about.......

 

[Captain Awesome]

Don't Fell so bad the F-150 just missed the top spot on the American made index for 2012.
The Cars.com American-Made Index - Cars.com

 

[Mogo]

The last person that should be demonized is the business just trying to compete!!!!!!!!!!!

Demonized? No, I don't agree with that. Have their feet held to the fire over foreign sourcing like we're doing in this thread? Sure.

My biggest issue with the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs in this country is that the bottom line benefits of outsourcing almost always flow to the investors and company higher-ups who's paychecks are tied to company financial performance, instead of the average worker.

The argument can be made that goods are cheaper in this country because of out-sourcing, and that this is good for the middle class here. But if you just got laid off from your job at the casting plant, you're not going to be buying a new Raptor, or aftermarket wheels, or anything. You're going to be wondering how to put food on the table and looking for another job.

If there is an institution that does get frequently demonized in this country, it is the labor unions. I think that unions exist, or existed at one point, in order to ensure that the workers reap some of the rewards of their hard work, instead of everything going to upper management or the shareholders.

Now, are there some cases of unions going overboard to the point where they threaten the solvency of the company? I'm sure there are. I personally know of union members that are fairly worthless employees who should probably be let go, but their jobs are safe because of the union. But do these examples justify labeling all union members as "thugs" and calling them lazy and entitled like you hear so often from the politicians? The amount of vitriolic rhetoric leveled at these people from certain segments of our political class is frankly pretty surprising. Just as surprising are the sweeping generalizations and hate directed towards the investors and Wall Street from the other side.

I work as a contractor in the oil industry, and there is no such thing as a union out here. The international oil company calls the shots. If you don't like it, you get down the road. If the oil company decides that all contractors wages are cut during the recession, with the promise that "when oil goes back above $60/barrel, you'll get everything back" and of course that never happens, you have no recourse. In theory, a union would give you some leverage (and hopefully a binding contract) to get your wages back.

I guess bottom line is, there are horror stories from people on both sides of the issue. I just can't nonchalantly accept outsourcing as a 100% good thing because it makes our Raptors cheaper. Until I see more evidence, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

[JMann2380]

Demonized? No, I don't agree with that. Have their feet held to the fire over foreign sourcing like we're doing in this thread? Sure.

My biggest issue with the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs in this country is that the bottom line benefits of outsourcing almost always flow to the investors and company higher-ups who's paychecks are tied to company financial performance, instead of the average worker.

The argument can be made that goods are cheaper in this country because of out-sourcing, and that this is good for the middle class here. But if you just got laid off from your job at the casting plant, you're not going to be buying a new Raptor, or aftermarket wheels, or anything. You're going to be wondering how to put food on the table and looking for another job.

If there is an institution that does get frequently demonized in this country, it is the labor unions. I think that unions exist, or existed at one point, in order to ensure that the workers reap some of the rewards of their hard work, instead of everything going to upper management or the shareholders.

Now, are there some cases of unions going overboard to the point where they threaten the solvency of the company? I'm sure there are. I personally know of union members that are fairly worthless employees who should probably be let go, but their jobs are safe because of the union. But do these examples justify labeling all union members as "thugs" and calling them lazy and entitled like you hear so often from the politicians? The amount of vitriolic rhetoric leveled at these people from certain segments of our political class is frankly pretty surprising. Just as surprising are the sweeping generalizations and hate directed towards the investors and Wall Street from the other side.

I work as a contractor in the oil industry, and there is no such thing as a union out here. The international oil company calls the shots. If you don't like it, you get down the road. If the oil company decides that all contractors wages are cut during the recession, with the promise that "when oil goes back above $60/barrel, you'll get everything back" and of course that never happens, you have no recourse. In theory, a union would give you some leverage (and hopefully a binding contract) to get your wages back.

I guess bottom line is, there are horror stories from people on both sides of the issue. I just can't nonchalantly accept outsourcing as a 100% good thing because it makes our Raptors cheaper. Until I see more evidence, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.

It's not about positives and negatives. It's about competing. And giving your customer what they want.

If your selling a 100% USA made widget for $100 and your competitor is selling it for $75 and the only way to compete is to have it made in China. What are you going to do to survive?

If your selling a 100% USA made widget for $100 and the price elasticity of demand means that it will only sell at $75 and the only way to make that happen is have it made in China. What are you going to do to survive?

You have to understand, not everyone is Ford sourcing wheels. There are a lot of small businesses trying to put food on their table. And guess what? If they don't, there is no unemployment! You have to do what you have to do to compete.... unfortunately.

 

[The Car Stereo Company]

 

[Fred]

The US Govt. needs to just get out of the people's way and let us do our thing. As a business owner the regulation,paper work, scare tactics, etc... Makes it such a pain in the ass.

Don't even start on taxes. So I am going to give someone my money and ask them to spend it more wisely then I would.

When most business owners work for the govt for 6 moths out of the year, does not exactly motivate me to take risks.

 

[Mogo]

It's not about positives and negatives. It's about competing. And giving your customer what they want.

If your selling a 100% USA made widget for $100 and your competitor is selling it for $75 and the only way to compete is to have it made in China. What are you going to do to survive?

If your selling a 100% USA made widget for $100 and the price elasticity of demand means that it will only sell at $75 and the only way to make that happen is have it made in China. What are you going to do to survive?

You have to understand, not everyone is Ford sourcing wheels. There are a lot of small businesses trying to put food on their table. And guess what? If they don't, there is no unemployment! You have to do what you have to do to compete.... unfortunately.

I understand and agree that not everybody who sources foreign material is the size of Ford. At this point, foreign made goods are a fact of life. But a huge industrial firm like Ford, who's decisions affect literally millions of people, should at least be questioned when they source something from China instead of domestically.

As far as PED of your generic widget, is it being artificially manipulated? Is the Chinese government subsidizing the manufacturer and allowing them to sell at below cost in order to gain market share (dumping)? The WTO slaps China with anti-dumping cases several times a year it seems. I don't know how long the Chinese can continue to subsidize their businesses, but they seem to have been doing a pretty good job of it for the last 20 years.

We used to have a system of import taxes in this country to handle situations like this. Most of the rest of the world still has this system, but it's manipulated to the benefit of that particular country. There's a reason you don't see a Ford or a Chevy on the streets of Tokyo or Seoul. If you see one on the streets of Beijing, it's only there because the Chinese government says that if you want to sell cars in China, you have to enter into a joint-venture partnership with a Chinese automaker (usually partly government-owned) and then manufacture your vehicles in China.

There is also the question of the average consumer who usually shops to a price point and goes no further. They don't care if tolerances are not up to spec, or if the product contains toxins, they want the cheapest goods available. At least, they don't care until it kills their dog:

Questions and Answers Regarding Jerky Pet Treats
(My grandparent's Australian Shepard was in rough shape and almost didn't pull through a few months ago from eating these dog treats.)

Or it corrodes their houses and makes them sick:

Wallboard Woes | Science & Technology | Chemical & Engineering News

Personally, I would choose your $100 American-made widget every time if given the choice. I know that there is a CNC machine operator, or a forklift driver, or somebody in the US that gets paid based on my purchase of the item. I also know that if the widget breaks, or causes my house to explode or something crazy, there's a pretty good chance I can get restitution through legal means from the manufacturer. Good luck getting that from a supplier in China.

Yes, it is about competing. But it is also about what is going to be good for our country in the long term. American made goods are more expensive because you have to pay for the negative externalities that are incurred in production. We have pollution controls, safety regulations, a system of laws. All of these things and more are taken into account when building something here. Foreign made goods are cheaper because you don't often pay the "true" price. The Chinese and others have been happy to accept the trashing of their environment, political corruption, and unsafe working conditions if it meant it got their people out of the rice paddies and into the factory. Eventually they're going to want clean skies and a just legal system too. When that happens, the US is in a world of trouble if our entire supply chain and all the little support pieces that go into it have moved overseas.

 

[rbarn]

In the age of globalization and international "just in time" manufacturing "Made in America" really only means "Assembled in America". Everything from "German made" cars to "made in America tractors" are built with internationally sourced components. My John Deere tractor has a Japanese diesel engine in it. It is now physically impossible to manufacture something as complicated as a car with parts sourced from only one country.

Thats just the way things are going to be forever or until the global credit markets crash and then we'll have bigger things to worry about. Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[JMann2380]

Personally, I would choose your $100 American-made widget every time if given the choice. I know that there is a CNC machine operator, or a forklift driver, or somebody in the US that gets paid based on my purchase of the item. I also know that if the widget breaks, or causes my house to explode or something crazy, there's a pretty good chance I can get restitution through legal means from the manufacturer. Good luck getting that from a supplier in China.

You, again, unfortunately, are in the minority.

Also there are a lot of businesses importing products that are keeping forklift drivers, secretaries, salesman, designers, logistics personnel, warehouse personnel, etc etc employed.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

I don't want you to think that I am advocating that companies should buy from China at all costs and that it doesn't come with consequences. Just that it is a tool that can and has to be utilized in certain situations.

 

[Mogo]

You, again, unfortunately, are in the minority.

Also there are a lot of businesses importing products that are keeping forklift drivers, secretaries, salesman, designers, logistics personnel, warehouse personnel, etc etc employed.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

I don't want you to think that I am advocating that companies should buy from China at all costs and that it doesn't come with consequences. Just that it is a tool that can and has to be utilized in certain situations.

Believe me, I understand that foreign-sourced material is a tool that can be utilized and that you're not advocating "buy from China at all costs". I am in the oilfield supply chain industry, and I still get paid regardless if I supply my customers imported material or domestic.

I just try to source as much domestic material as I can, as long as cost is within reason. It usually is, and if it isn't, I can convince my customers that they would rather have the more expensive domestic valve than the one with a 30 week lead time that is forged in India.

I hope that by sourcing with a bias towards domestic, I can support the jobs of not only all of the forklift drivers, the salesmen, the secretaries, and the designers, I can also support all of the lathe operators, assembly line workers, shippers, truck drivers, and everybody else involved.

I consider myself fiercely patriotic, bordering on nationalistic. I hope by our little discussion here that people will at least think about some of the drawbacks to buying "Made in China" or "Made in Vietnam" and realize that the price difference between import and domestic is usually caused more by the externalities of manufacturing here than the old "lazy American workers are paid too much" trope (don't misunderstand, you haven't said anything about domestic labor costs, but the thought is there almost anywhere you look in most discussions regarding this issue).

It seems like most everybody on this forum is pretty chill and willing to have a civil conversation about different issues. One more reason that I'm glad I stumbled onto this place a few months ago when I was looking to buy a Raptor.