KIDOR Lemon Law Denied and Suspension Warranty Cancelled

[FordTechOne]

I am just wonde

And you are still stuck on Eibachs. I said that numerous times ... with the amount of people running those springs and offroading their trucks (sometimes harder then he did) we would hear a lot of stories of Steering Shaking. On this forum alone how many people have leveled their trucks and offroad them? Its just mathematically impossible that with amount of people running leveled trucks we didn't hear any stories like this before about steering shaking. So in my mind springs alone have nothing to do with his steering shaking. Maybe combined with his 37" tires, wheel offset and other things he did ... but not springs alone. With that being said Eibachs would probably said to him same thing I just wrote.

I'm not disagreeing with you on your statement that it could be a combination of the springs/37's/alignment, etc. I'm simply stating that an aftermarket company like Eibach might be interested in developing a solution that would benefit the consumer as well as the company in terms of sales/profit.

 

[Jakenbake]

You're probably right, but Eibach might have been willing to put some time and energy into figuring it out if there was the possibility of selling an aftermarket fix ...

I wouldn’t imagine that eibach, as a component manufacturer, would be all that interested in getting involved. It would more than likely be a SVC, RPG, etc. Which begs the question that why haven’t they in the 4 years of this generation?

 

[TwizzleStix]

I wouldn’t imagine that eibach, as a component manufacturer, would be all that interested in getting involved. It would more than likely be a SVC, RPG, etc. Which begs the question that why haven’t they in the 4 years of this generation?

Because the EPAS steering in NOT a problem. If the aftermarket vendors had discovered this “problem” they would have already developed a solution. The truck in discussion has a malfunction no doubt, but is only revealed when stupid is driving the truck.

 

[Dustan]

To add another variable, he owned a 2017 that was way more modified and I’m sure was driven the same way. He never had a problem that I know of with it. I don’t want to get into the stock vs. modded discussion, but do the other members that are having issues have a live valve trucks?

 

[smurfslayer]

And you are still stuck on Eibachs. I said that numerous times ... with the amount of people running those springs and offroading their trucks (sometimes harder then he did) we would hear a lot of stories of Steering Shaking. On this forum alone how many people have leveled their trucks and offroad them? Its just mathematically impossible that with amount of people running leveled trucks we didn't hear any stories like this before about steering shaking. So in my mind springs alone have nothing to do with his steering shaking. Maybe combined with his 37" tires, wheel offset and other things he did ... but not springs alone. With that being said Eibachs would probably said to him same thing I just wrote.

So there’s let’s say out of the 20,000 or so Raptor owners 1000 eibach spring users. Totally made up numbers, but let’s call it an enormous 5%. Of them, you have how many complaining of “death shake”? 4?

Of those, how many modified a truck with a known problem? we know of at least 1; well... we -think- we know of one because honesty has not been established, merely asserted and frankly evidence seems to point the other way. Even so, I could give this guy the benefit of the doubt that the issue was present prior to mods, but that doesn’t earn him a free warranty pass at all of our expense.

When you change springs only and the spring rate has changed either via progressive or linear spring, and you don’t change the damping, ride quality at a minimum will suffer, as will wear and tear on each component in the suspension due to the mismatch. A lot? it depends on the change in rate and damping. It’s a lot more noticeable on something light like a bike or side by side but it’s there. Plus, you’re lifting the front by what - 1-2 inches, increasing the angle on the cv joints, angle of the suspension itself, the bushings are being stressed differently, and probably more. Let’s be honest, nobody in this discussion is a world class off road racing engineer or design engineer. We’re end users.

I hope this guy does get the truck fixed but I think his anger at Ford is misplaced. Why isn’t he complaining that his eibach springs caused his death shake or that the brand of tire he runs is responsible? More importantly, why isn’t he looking in the mirror and admitting to himself that he caused this problem?

Because that doesn’t get money from online video adverts?
I’m asking.

 

[Jakenbake]

Because the EPAS steering in NOT a problem. If the aftermarket vendors had discovered this “problem” they would have already developed a solution. The truck in discussion has a malfunction no doubt, but is only revealed when stupid is driving the truck.

Agreed that if there were a widespread problem that those companies would already have a fix. If it were a widespread problem I would consider my supercharger whine (gen 1 hydraulic powersteering) not that big of a deal lol.

 

[JAndreF321]

May it please the court...

The stock tire/rim combo is 62.4 tire + 34/37 rim = 96.4/99.4lbs
The KIDOR package is Method 704 (32.5) + KM3 37x13.50R17 (81.35) = 113.85lbs

Another option would be the same methods with KO2 at 37x12.50R17 which is 32.5 + 71.3 = 103.8lbs...only 4 lbs off from stock and smaller diameter. I'm sure tire choice makes a huge difference with performance and affect on drive train components.

It still seems, by the descriptions, that the issue is software based and caused by the electric steering combined with certain modifications involving rims/tires/lift. If aftermarket has already made mid travel kits which change axle angle to avoid this problem then there is already a solution. Ford need not be bothered.

 

[zombiekiller]

May it please the court...

The stock tire/rim combo is 62.4 tire + 34/37 rim = 96.4/99.4lbs
The KIDOR package is Method 704 (32.5) + KM3 37x13.50R17 (81.35) = 113.85lbs

Another option would be the same methods with KO2 at 37x12.50R17 which is 32.5 + 71.3 = 103.8lbs...only 4 lbs off from stock and smaller diameter. I'm sure tire choice makes a huge difference with performance and affect on drive train components.

It still seems, by the descriptions, that the issue is software based and caused by the electric steering combined with certain modifications involving rims/tires/lift. If aftermarket has already made mid travel kits which change axle angle to avoid this problem then there is already a solution. Ford need not be bothered.

If the wheel/tire weight was the sole contributing factor, I probably wouldn't even be able to steer my truck. I'm at approx 125 lbs for a Raceline Avenger360M beadlock with a BFG KR3 40" tire.

The axle angle also has ZERO to do with the steering system overcorrecting.

Tie rod angle? ok, MAYBE because of the rotational inertia and harmonics of the wheel/tire impacting what forces the steering rack sees.

I'll repeat again, I like Helio as a person. What anyone else thinks of him is immaterial and won't change my opinion of him. It's okay to empathize with someone's situation, but disagree with how they handle it.


That being said, the steering logic is designed to help save you from wadding up your truck.

go take a look at the video where he focuses on the steering wheel while this is happening.

Notice anything? I do. He's gripping the steering wheel rather tightly. He's actually trying to fight the steering wheel while going over the obstacle.

Then the "correction" from the truck rips the steering wheel out of his hand. BUT, the entire time, he's fighting the truck. So much so that he's got his thumbs curling on the wheel.

When you drive one of these trucks quickly offroad, you HAVE to learn to read terrain and position the truck appropriately. When you do this, you let the suspension do the work over the obstacle.

There is a reason that "picking a line" is a thing.

For me, when I'm driving, I have a very very light touch on the steering wheel, outside of hard turns. The steering wheel is going to shake a little bit as the tire hits the bump and the steering system oscillates a tiny bit. It isn't even a bump steer situation. Unless the obstacle is perfectly square it is going to make the steering wheel move just a little. a"wiggle" if you will.

If you have a properly set up and tuned suspension, it will minimize this. If the "feeling" bothers you too much, well, now you know why "swingset" steering was invented. If you look at "built" trucks, they will generally have a fast ratio steering box that goes with swingset steering. You don't want to use a quick ratio rack instead of swingset/box because the steering wheel "wiggle" will be amplified with the faster ratio. a 1/2 turn of the wheel in most race vehicles will have the front tires at full lock. In a raptor, it is almost two rotations. The slower ratio helps mask what is really going on with the tires/wheels.

Stock trucks don't do this because ford has designed the computerized steering logic to obfuscate that this is even happening.

When you change multiple variables that are used to calculate how the steering behaves, you can have unintended consequences.

So in reality, my opinion is that this is a combination of equipment and driving skills. What is it not? Not Ford's fault. Not the dealer's fault. They didn't modify the truck. they aren't driving the truck when it happens.

What happens if he drives the truck with soft hands over the same terrain? What happens if you let the steering wheels slide a bit under your hands? ( surprise! if the alignment is right, the wheels will return to center and all you'll notice is the wheel sliding back and forth a little). Soft hands will preserve your steering function, minimize wear and keep you from losing fingernails.

Do y'all really think that the R&D time and cost incurred by an aftermarket parts company to solve what is likely a result of driving habits would generate any semblance of ROI?

no. why would any of the companies listed previously in this thread invest their money to solve a problem that an end-user creates? Add that it is an extremely small number of potential customers seeking a "solution" and it just doesn't make business sense.


Lastly, now everyone can see why it is a lot smarter to buy a fully-baked suspension "system" from a professional, experienced shop instead of piece-mealing a setup with aftermarket springs, and this piece, and that piece and a bunch of other shit that wasn't ever engineered to work together by a singular company.

This scenario is a user-generated problem that provides no business case for investing the time and money to "solve it" from an aftermarket company's perspective.

I'll reiterate, this hobby is expensive. Buy once, cry once. Quality costs.


CN: relax your death grip on the steering wheel and let your truck do the work.

 

[GordoJay]

If the wheel/tire weight was the sole contributing factor, I probably wouldn't even be able to steer my truck. I'm at approx 125 lbs for a Raceline Avenger360M beadlock with a BFG KR3 40" tire.

The axle angle also has ZERO to do with the steering system overcorrecting.

Tie rod angle? ok, MAYBE because of the rotational inertia and harmonics of the wheel/tire impacting what forces the steering rack sees.

I'll repeat again, I like Helio as a person. What anyone else thinks of him is immaterial and won't change my opinion of him. It's okay to empathize with someone's situation, but disagree with how they handle it.


That being said, the steering logic is designed to help save you from wadding up your truck.

go take a look at the video where he focuses on the steering wheel while this is happening.

Notice anything? I do. He's gripping the steering wheel rather tightly. He's actually trying to fight the steering wheel while going over the obstacle.

Then the "correction" from the truck rips the steering wheel out of his hand. BUT, the entire time, he's fighting the truck. So much so that he's got his thumbs curling on the wheel.

When you drive one of these trucks quickly offroad, you HAVE to learn to read terrain and position the truck appropriately. When you do this, you let the suspension do the work over the obstacle.

There is a reason that "picking a line" is a thing.

For me, when I'm driving, I have a very very light touch on the steering wheel, outside of hard turns. The steering wheel is going to shake a little bit as the tire hits the bump and the steering system oscillates a tiny bit. It isn't even a bump steer situation. Unless the obstacle is perfectly square it is going to make the steering wheel move just a little. a"wiggle" if you will.

If you have a properly set up and tuned suspension, it will minimize this. If the "feeling" bothers you too much, well, now you know why "swingset" steering was invented. If you look at "built" trucks, they will generally have a fast ratio steering box that goes with swingset steering. You don't want to use a quick ratio rack instead of swingset/box because the steering wheel "wiggle" will be amplified with the faster ratio. a 1/2 turn of the wheel in most race vehicles will have the front tires at full lock. In a raptor, it is almost two rotations. The slower ratio helps mask what is really going on with the tires/wheels.

Stock trucks don't do this because ford has designed the computerized steering logic to obfuscate that this is even happening.

When you change multiple variables that are used to calculate how the steering behaves, you can have unintended consequences.

So in reality, my opinion is that this is a combination of equipment and driving skills. What is it not? Not Ford's fault. Not the dealer's fault. They didn't modify the truck. they aren't driving the truck when it happens.

What happens if he drives the truck with soft hands over the same terrain? What happens if you let the steering wheels slide a bit under your hands? ( surprise! if the alignment is right, the wheels will return to center and all you'll notice is the wheel sliding back and forth a little). Soft hands will preserve your steering function, minimize wear and keep you from losing fingernails.

Do y'all really think that the R&D time and cost incurred by an aftermarket parts company to solve what is likely a result of driving habits would generate any semblance of ROI?

no. why would any of the companies listed previously in this thread invest their money to solve a problem that an end-user creates? Add that it is an extremely small number of potential customers seeking a "solution" and it just doesn't make business sense.


Lastly, now everyone can see why it is a lot smarter to buy a fully-baked suspension "system" from a professional, experienced shop instead of piece-mealing a setup with aftermarket springs, and this piece, and that piece and a bunch of other shit that wasn't ever engineered to work together by a singular company.

This scenario is a user-generated problem that provides no business case for investing the time and money to "solve it" from an aftermarket company's perspective.

I'll reiterate, this hobby is expensive. Buy once, cry once. Quality costs.


CN: relax your death grip on the steering wheel and let your truck do the work.

A very nice summary. Thank you.

 

[1BAD454SSv2]

A very nice summary. Thank you.

Yes well done Zombie.

I really notice this death grip style riding my high horsepower quads . Don't realize till my arms are tired and I'm already beat up . Then think to relax up a bit.