Cam Phaser/Engine Failure Reports

[Bhollier]

AFAIK the reason for the noisy phasers is that they don't park properly when the motor is shutoff - nothing to do with lubrication/pressure. Since they aren't parked/locked right at shutdown they shudder for a second to catch sync with the rest of the system. Anyway, that is my understanding of the issue.

You are correct on the reason why they make noise, due to not being parked correctly. However the reason for them not being parked correctly is what we are trying to figure out. If the reason is due to particles becoming lodged in the small gaps where the fluid (oil) flows this is absolutely a lubrication issue.

The product we have developed lifted these particles out so they can be collected in the filter while forming a better film inside the unit to stop particles from becoming lodged again. Basically the additive works like you engine oil just on an atomic level vs the molecular level that engine oils are designed and formulated for. It will also break down the coked engine oil particles throughout the engine by breaking them down on the atomic level vs lifting them off to be removed by the filter like other oil additives.

 

[smurfslayer]

It will also break down the coked engine oil particles throughout the engine by breaking them down on the atomic level vs lifting them off to be removed by the filter like other oil additives.

but what happens to those particles while they’re circulating around in the engine oil? it would almost seem to be like a worse version of a motorcycle with a wet clutch. If you’re thinking that they’ll get trapped by the engine oil filter, they won’t; at least not all of them.

 

[Bhollier]

but what happens to those particles while they’re circulating around in the engine oil? it would almost seem to be like a worse version of a motorcycle with a wet clutch. If you’re thinking that they’ll get trapped by the engine oil filter, they won’t; at least not all of them.

Those particles become encapsulated by the additive, which forms a very fine film over them which does not allow them to stick to anything. They will be removed when the oil is drained.

The product is design to have a reaction with the carbon and hydrogen bonds in the oil and metal itself. We developed this product for use in the oil industry to eliminate issues in crude oil production and drilling. I know it is not harming anything in the engine since we have done metallurgy and compatibility tests on various materials when we first developed the product. We haven't had any issues with compatibility.

 

[MnFlyer]

Those particles become encapsulated by the additive, which forms a very fine film over them which does not allow them to stick to anything. They will be removed when the oil is drained.

The product is design to have a reaction with the carbon and hydrogen bonds in the oil and metal itself. We developed this product for use in the oil industry to eliminate issues in crude oil production and drilling. I know it is not harming anything in the engine since we have done metallurgy and compatibility tests on various materials when we first developed the product. We haven't had any issues with compatibility.

Kind of like prist for jet fuel? Prist will encase the water do it won’t freeze and clog up the filter.


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[Bhollier]

Kind of like prist for jet fuel? Prist will encase the water do it won’t freeze and clog up the filter.


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Yes and no, the particles that are not picked up by the filter will have a similar effect to prist. The metal walls throughout the lubrication system will also have a film (microscopic) layer formed by this additive which inhibits particles from collecting and depositing.

What we are working on now is determining the proper ratio to be most effective. I started at a very low dosage over concerns that I would change the oil viscosity too much for the first trial. I will have to wait until I change my oil to see if we should increase the next time or remain the same.

 

[Raptus]

I think this is a very plausible theory and look forward to hearing more about the testing. My cam phasers on my 2018 have started making noise on startup too! . I have 31k miles on it and change the oil and filter myself religiously. I’ve also had a JLT catch can on it from the start. I’m sure one of the FRF members probably has a failed cam phasers for you to evaluate to help support this theory. I like to cover all the bases but in the end if it works it works. I also wonder if tolerances on the cam phasers is an issue. If the tolerances are tighter the cam phasers is more likely to get coked.


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[TwizzleStix]

AFAIK, all the different oem camshaft actuators have a spring that applies the force to “park” or zero position and a solid pin that pops into a receiver hole to hold the actuators at the specific position. Most designs utilize a short, very strong spring and pin located inside the actuator whereas Ford uses a relatively weak clock-style spring located outside the actuators. Likely due to patents on other designs. These clock springs are not fully captivated, so they’re subject to vibration and heat induced weakening and fractures. If the spring weakens it can’t apply enough force to solidly seat the locating pin resulting in the clatter until oil pressure comes up and the ECU commands the actuator into the desired dynamic position.

Now, that said, Mazda uses the internal spring/pin setup and had a batch of actuators that were failing causes the same clatter at startup as the Fords. Mazda did their due diligence investigation and found the supplier failed to properly heat treat the “socket” in the aluminum actuator causing it to fracture such that the pin was not located positively. Mazda issued a FSB for the dealers to replace the actuators if a customer complaint.

Ford has likely sent some failed phasers to their vendor for root cause analysis and maybe the vendor has made some attempts at improving durability of the spring/pin/socket. It would be great if someone with inside connections could tell us the vendor’s name.

My final point is that Ford is likely stuck with their current cam actuator (Ford calls it a phaser rather than actuator?) design because the better designs are already patented by the Japanese and Germans. Ford could likely purchase the better actuators at a ridiculous cost and have elected not.

Note that I have ~45k miles on my 2018 with no “phaser” problems.

 

[Bhollier]

AFAIK, all the different oem camshaft actuators have a spring that applies the force to “park” or zero position and a solid pin that pops into a receiver hole to hold the actuators at the specific position. Most designs utilize a short, very strong spring and pin located inside the actuator whereas Ford uses a relatively weak clock-style spring located outside the actuators. Likely due to patents on other designs. These clock springs are not fully captivated, so they’re subject to vibration and heat induced weakening and fractures. If the spring weakens it can’t apply enough force to solidly seat the locating pin resulting in the clatter until oil pressure comes up and the ECU commands the actuator into the desired dynamic position.

Now, that said, Mazda uses the internal spring/pin setup and had a batch of actuators that were failing causes the same clatter at startup as the Fords. Mazda did their due diligence investigation and found the supplier failed to properly heat treat the “socket” in the aluminum actuator causing it to fracture such that the pin was not located positively. Mazda issued a FSB for the dealers to replace the actuators if a customer complaint.

Ford has likely sent some failed phasers to their vendor for root cause analysis and maybe the vendor has made some attempts at improving durability of the spring/pin/socket. It would be great if someone with inside connections could tell us the vendor’s name.

My final point is that Ford is likely stuck with their current cam actuator (Ford calls it a phaser rather than actuator?) design because the better designs are already patented by the Japanese and Germans. Ford could likely purchase the better actuators at a ridiculous cost and have elected not.

Note that I have ~45k miles on my 2018 with no “phaser” problems.

I understand that the spring may weaken over time but this part is also lubricated by the oil system which could lead to deposits forming inside the unit. Which would then inhibit the pin from properly setting and not allowing the phaser to fall into the correct position. From what I see you have a few part that are prone to fail and bind if not properly lubricate. The additive we have developed stops this exact issue. We first starting using this for lubrication in drill mud system where torque is a big problem that leads to failures. If our product is stable during drilling for oil and gas, working inside of an engine to perform the same task is not an issue.

I do not doubt what you are saying, it is just odd that I add this chemical to my engine oil and the problem has stopped. Engine performance is better than new. Only time will tell if this is an alternative.

 

[TwizzleStix]

....I do not doubt what you are saying, it is just odd that I add this chemical to my engine oil and the problem has stopped. Engine performance is better than new. Only time will tell if this is an alternative.

Yes, I wasn’t discounting your results, I was adding my first hand experience and some hypothesis as to contributory failure modes.

It does seem like there are more than one root cause of the phasers issue. As you have pointed out, your experience showed that your failure is/was likely caused by some type of lubrication breakdown. There have been photos posted here that show external spring failure as well.

 

[Palmetto_Raptor]

Guys, does this sound like my cam phasers are going out? http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5dd610ae55abc/20191120_185126.mp4

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

That sounds normal to me. Mine revs higher when cold then settles down after about a minute. It's done it since new and does it now with about 8K miles on it.