Anybody else over the new Raptor R already?

[GordoJay]

Honest question on the tax credit giveaway to the rich comment. I hear this a lot what’s the rich guy angle here I don’t know all the tax schemes people think up?

A credit comes off taxes you owe. Pay no income tax, like nearly 60% of Americans, and a credit is useless. Pay less than $7500 in a given year, and you have to carry the credit forward to later years, which lowers it's value. Just paying tax puts you in the top 50%. I don't know what percentage of Americans pay $7500 per year, but it's probably less than a quarter.

 

[AC4400]

A credit comes off taxes you owe. Pay no income tax, like nearly 60% of Americans, and a credit is useless. Pay less than $7500 in a given year, and you have to carry the credit forward to later years, which lowers it's value. Just paying tax puts you in the top 50%. I don't know what percentage of Americans pay $7500 per year, but it's probably less than a quarter.

From that perspective that makes sense for sure.

 

[Raptorial]

A credit comes off taxes you owe. Pay no income tax, like nearly 60% of Americans, and a credit is useless.

Doesn't matter how many times I see that statistic, still makes me sick each time !

 

[drtibrd]

Excellent point on the torque and agreed. Honest question on the tax credit giveaway to the rich comment. I hear this a lot what’s the rich guy angle here I don’t know all the tax schemes people think up?

Under current IRS guidelines the adjusted gross income (AGI) amount to be able to get credit must be below $300,000. For a joint return.

The base (I’m assuming) vehicle cost must be less than $55,000 for a car and $80,000 for a Truck or SUV. Not all models will qualify for the max 7500 credit.

Only vehicles that have final assembly in North America qualify.

Batteries must be made with Minerals from Nations that have US Trade agreements and battery parts must be made in US, Canada, or Mexico.

Don’t think for a nano-second that manufacturers haven’t already baked those tax credits into their COGS

 

[TomDirt]

. And since tax credits are a giveaway to the rich, I think I deserve a 75000 credit. It's only fair. And it's good for trees and makes Greta happy so there.

If gubmint can forgive tuition loans, throw money at home solar panels, and bestow tax credits on new car purchases, then why not erase home loans too? After all, it's the next generation of taxpayers that will pay up for these things...

 

[TomDirt]

I think I would buy a used Lightning if I could find one for a reasonable price. I saw that Ford jacked up the MSRP of the Lightning for 2023.

"used Lightning" & "reasonable price" do not belong in the same sentence.

 

[DINOZR]

However, I can't see that it's outrageously priced. Would it be nice to have the option to get one with less equipment in the $90k range? Sure. But Ford is only building them fully equipped, and when you compare a fully equipped TRX at ~$100-102k MSRP, it seems to be priced appropriately - based on the factory MSRP.

Now, I do admit that it's unlikely that many will get their hands on one for $110k, but that isn't really Ford's fault. The dealerships and supply/demand are causing the unacceptable premium. If you want to take issue with that, I can understand your view. But I can't say the truck has been outrageously or even over priced by Ford.

I think you're discounting a couple incredibly important points:

1. TRXs are commonly available for $10-$11k off MSRP. Koons, Chapman, Dan Cummins, Granger, and more offer this deal. You have to order one and wait, but it's a sure thing. So you're actually comparing the $103k MSRP TRX that sells for $93k to the $109k MSRP Raptor R that sells for $120k after ADM (if you're lucky). So it's actually $93k vs $120k, using rough numbers, for fully loaded vs fully loaded.

2. RAM makes as many TRXs as they can sell. You want a TRX? Go order a 2023 right now. You'll have your vehicle order number tomorrow and your VIN will be assigned in another 2 days. Now you're gonna wait somewhere between 2 and 10 months to receive it. But you will get it. There's no question of scarcity.

 

[Raptorial]

I think you're discounting a couple incredibly important points:

1. TRXs are commonly available for $10-$11k off MSRP. Koons, Chapman, Dan Cummins, Granger, and more offer this deal. You have to order one and wait, but it's a sure thing. So you're actually comparing the $103k MSRP TRX that sells for $93k to the $109k MSRP Raptor R that sells for $120k after ADM (if you're lucky). So it's actually $93k vs $120k, using rough numbers, for fully loaded vs fully loaded.

2. RAM makes as many TRXs as they can sell. You want a TRX? Go order a 2023 right now. You'll have your vehicle order number tomorrow and your VIN will be assigned in another 2 days. Now you're gonna wait somewhere between 2 and 10 months to receive it. But you will get it. There's no question of scarcity.

Exactly

 

[V8 Goat]

I think you're discounting a couple incredibly important points:

1. TRXs are commonly available for $10-$11k off MSRP. Koons, Chapman, Dan Cummins, Granger, and more offer this deal. You have to order one and wait, but it's a sure thing. So you're actually comparing the $103k MSRP TRX that sells for $93k to the $109k MSRP Raptor R that sells for $120k after ADM (if you're lucky). So it's actually $93k vs $120k, using rough numbers, for fully loaded vs fully loaded.

2. RAM makes as many TRXs as they can sell. You want a TRX? Go order a 2023 right now. You'll have your vehicle order number tomorrow and your VIN will be assigned in another 2 days. Now you're gonna wait somewhere between 2 and 10 months to receive it. But you will get it. There's no question of scarcity.

I understand there are a few dealers discounting TRXs, but that really isn't the norm. All the pre-owned TRXs in my area are still significantly over the original sticker because the dealers sell them for over MSRP here. And I acknowledged how difficult it would be to get a Raptor R and the terrible games the Ford dealers play.

But none of that is related to the point I was actually trying to make. I really only took issue with what seemed to be the position the OP took in regard to Ford overpricing the truck. I was pointing out that a $110k MSRP seems about right for a Raptor R given that a comparably equipped TRX runs in the $102-103k MSRP range.

Taking into account the kind of deal you're able to broker shouldn't really be considered when looking at how the factory priced the truck. I was offered a Raptor R at MSRP, but I declined. I also see that Dan Cummins has a Mojave TRX online for $20k over MSRP. But that doesn't mean the TRX, generally speaking, is overpriced, or is overpriced when compared to a Raptor R. It just means that TRX has been overpriced by the dealer - not the manufacturer.

I don't think our views are all that dissimilar - perhaps our perspectives are. You're comparing transactional sales data when comparing the 2 trucks, and I am comparing the MSRPs...

 

[Danlwells]

Same here GordoJay. This buying environment is ridiculous. I’m happy to wait it out