MPT Tune Version 4

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FORZDA 1

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I have a replacement intercooler sitting on the shelf in my garage. I've yet to find a situation where it is actually needed for a performance increase with stock turbos though. It's the one on the right. The left one is for the RS, along with the big turbo on the shelf. Note I couldn't get the photo to show top up, so...
 

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FORZDA 1

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...I did email MPT asking them what kind of temps they are seeing with IAT2 and if there is any reason the numbers on the nGauge that display that temp get brighter at 120 degrees. No word back yet...

I've found that MPT doesn't provide much data to their customer support folks, but maybe they will reply with good data. As for the 120 deg change, the nGauge has several setup features where you can set warnings/color changes, for every parameter monitored on the gauge screen. I have the IAT2 set to alarm to white text at 140 deg, so I take notice.
 

TXRaptor

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Just know that while driving at a steady throttle speed for 10-15 minutes that the IAT2 will usually run about 10-15 deg warmer than the ambient at IAT1, which is the air entering the turbo inlets. This is pretty much as good as it gets. If you measure IAT2 against the ambient outside temp, it will usually run 20 or more deg higher. If you understand where the temp sensors are located, it makes perfect sense. If you want to manipulate the numbers to sell a product, it is quite easy to do as well. All while showing the actual numbers to the customer to show "legitimacy".

Your 20 degrees higher analysis makes sense with what I am seeing with my FR IC. My IAT2 readings were at 118 and the outside temp was 98 after a spirited run on the highway by my house.

However, if a larger IC does not help due to the location of the sensor, why is Darin seeing a difference of more than 50 degrees between outside and IAT2 temps? I am just trying to understand what might be different between his scenario and mine other than the ICs?
 

03'Darin

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[/COLOR]

Yes, it is fairly accurately measurable if the test conditions are setup properly. It is very easy to overstate the replacement effects as "great" and/or understate the OEM effects as "poor". Just know that while driving at a steady throttle speed for 10-15 minutes that the IAT2 will usually run about 10-15 deg warmer than the ambient at IAT1, which is the air entering the turbo inlets. This is pretty much as good as it gets. If you measure IAT2 against the ambient outside temp, it will usually run 20 or more deg higher. If you understand where the temp sensors are located, it makes perfect sense. If you want to manipulate the numbers to sell a product, it is quite easy to do as well. All while showing the actual numbers to the customer to show "legitimacy".[/QUOTE]

IAT2 temps make more sense now that I know where the sensor is. Curious how much those readings change with and without a tune no matter who's IC is being run.

Also now this makes a little more sense that Masimoto only advertises a 10 degree drop in temps with their IC.

I don't have the truck today but will be driving it to work tomorrow. I'll do a little more experimenting with temps and report back. Seeing what you guys are posting temp wise doesn't add up with the variations I'm seeing from ambient to IAT2.

I'm sure the 170 t-stat would have to have at least a small impact on IAT2 temps since it's in the manifold, right? That's 40-50 degrees cooler than the stock t-stat. I'm just not sure that running with engine temps that cool is the right thing. I'm considering maybe a 190 but want to see if I can find any info regarding what temps are safe or ideal for these motors.
 
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FORZDA 1

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Without knowing the exact setup scenario I can’t say for sure. However, 50 deg temp differences MAY be seen between the outside temp and IAT2 if the intake air (IAT1) was already heated by the truck sitting stopped in traffic or shut off while gassing up or otherwise, and then driving a short distance only. The air temps are not reliable for comparisons unless the throttle is open more than slightly and the truck moving > ~50 mph for >~ 15 minutes. You just can’t take anyone’s word on their temps and compare to any others without knowing the exact conditions.

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------

Also now this makes a little more sense that Masimoto only advertises a 10 degree drop in temps with their IC.


I'm sure the 170 t-stat would have to have at least a small impact on IAT2 temps since it's in the manifold, right? That's 40-50 degrees cooler than the stock t-stat. I'm just not sure that running with engine temps that cool is the right thing. I'm considering maybe a 190 but want to see if I can find any info regarding what temps are safe or ideal for these motors.

The Mishimoto FMIC is what I have on the shelf and it fits in the stock location, so it increases cooling from the simple efficiency of the internal design and very small increase in core size. The much larger aftermarket FMICs that require cutting and cover the actual radiator area will likely have better cooling simply from surface area. That surface area causes increased drag and loss of actual cooling efficiency, but works because they are so big.

As for the T-stat issue, I can tell you from decades of experience that you want to keep it at 180 or more to maintain efficient combustion. The engine temperature must remain high to get the most from the fuel and tuning. The cold (relatively) T-stats come from the dark ages when we were trying everything we could to increase power/timing. The colder we could get the engine while keeping the carb and manifold warm enough to prevent icing the more timing you could add which equates to more power. We used a whole lot of gas, but who cared, it was 25 cents a gallon and plentiful.

The advent of EFI and the latest ECU/sensor hardware has made those ancient methods largely irrelevant unless you're drag racing in a carb-only class with no forced induction.

The optimum temp for the engine is right around 190-200 deg cylinder head/combustion temps, so the coolant running at ~200 is just right. Most modern engines are tuned to run best at the 200 deg mark with T-stats usually cracking open at around 192-195 deg and fully open by 210 or so. I've long abandoned the cold T-stat approach, but it keeps coming back, likely from old farts who haven't progressed their knowledge and the younger folks who take their old advice...
 

03'Darin

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Without knowing the exact setup scenario I can’t say for sure. However, 50 deg temp differences MAY be seen between the outside temp and IAT2 if the intake air (IAT1) was already heated by the truck sitting stopped in traffic or shut off while gassing up or otherwise, and then driving a short distance only. The air temps are not reliable for comparisons unless the throttle is open more than slightly and the truck moving > ~50 mph for >~ 15 minutes. You just can’t take anyone’s word on their temps and compare to any others without knowing the exact conditions.

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------



The Mishimoto FMIC is what I have on the shelf and it fits in the stock location, so it increases cooling from the simple efficiency of the internal design and very small increase in core size. The much larger aftermarket FMICs that require cutting and cover the actual radiator area will likely have better cooling simply from surface area. That surface area causes increased drag and loss of actual cooling efficiency, but works because they are so big.

As for the T-stat issue, I can tell you from decades of experience that you want to keep it at 180 or more to maintain efficient combustion. The engine temperature must remain high to get the most from the fuel and tuning. The cold (relatively) T-stats come from the dark ages when we were trying everything we could to increase power/timing. The colder we could get the engine while keeping the carb and manifold warm enough to prevent icing the more timing you could add which equates to more power. We used a whole lot of gas, but who cared, it was 25 cents a gallon and plentiful.

The advent of EFI and the latest ECU/sensor hardware has made those ancient methods largely irrelevant unless you're drag racing in a carb-only class with no forced induction.

The optimum temp for the engine is right around 190-200 deg cylinder head/combustion temps, so the coolant running at ~200 is just right. Most modern engines are tuned to run best at the 200 deg mark with T-stats usually cracking open at around 192-195 deg and fully open by 210 or so. I've long abandoned the cold T-stat approach, but it keeps coming back, likely from old farts who haven't progressed their knowledge and the younger folks who take their old advice...

Understood. Early days of EFI a colder stat caused the PCM to put more fuel to the motor trying to warm it up. Resulted in minimal gains. So I get the old school mind set vs new world computer controlled capability.

Who knows these 140 degree IAT2 temps may be acceptable levels??

I got an email back from MPT. Here is what their response was:

Hey Darin,

If you haven’t already, load the stock tune and romp on it a good bit, watching IATs. This is something I suggest to everyone so you have a better idea of what is normal. The intercooler on these trucks is pretty terrible which is why it’s such a common upgrade. The wagner will do a much better job of handling air temps. Unfortunately 120 is not hot on these trucks. You’ll see 140+ pretty often.
 
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Dr.Z

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I actually have the wagner IC that mpt mentioned. Fits in stock location. Keeps the IC fans and the grill shutter for those cold PA mornings. It might not be the most efficient but unless your going bigger turbo its probally not needed.
 

03'Darin

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I actually have the wagner IC that mpt mentioned. Fits in stock location. Keeps the IC fans and the grill shutter for those cold PA mornings. It might not be the most efficient but unless your going bigger turbo its probally not needed.

Do you have the MPT tunes also? If so how much variation are you seeing between ambient temps and IAT2 reaadings? On my way to work this morning just driving very easy on back 2 lane roads I was seeing 30 - 40 degree variations from ambient to IAT2.

What are of PA are you from?
 

Dr.Z

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I was getting about 30 degrees difference yesterday on may way home just crusing on the highway. Haven't put my mpt tune on yet but real soon. I live near cabelas off 78. About 45 minutes from Harrisburg
 

03'Darin

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I was getting about 30 degrees difference yesterday on may way home just crusing on the highway. Haven't put my mpt tune on yet but real soon. I live near cabelas off 78. About 45 minutes from Harrisburg

That 30 degrees is pretty similar to what i was seeing just cruising along around 50 mph. As soon as I'd tip in the throttle for a slight incline that would climb close to 40 pretty quickly.

I'm just north of HBG
 
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