Market abuse

[QCRappy]

Houses appreciate, vehicles do not typically. Once the fed raises interest rates the prices will fall back a little.

exactly! rates are already moved back up over normal levels - its crazy

 

[xlover]

Capitalism. Thats all this is. Nothing to see here.

This is only crappy if someone orders one at MSRP and the dealer doesn’t honor it.

There is no issue with dealer markups. The market determines the price. Thats the way it works.

That is not fully accurate, in the instance of car dealers it is not a true capitalist market, car dealers are actually closer to a socialism model at least on the other half of the equation, aquiring and controlling inventory. It is a planned and controlled distribution with specific local monopolies and government protection, it is not openly competitive, and the dealers thrive on that. The dealers take advantage of the lack of competition on the acquisition of inventory and use that advantage along with franchise laws to gain additional leverage over the consumer they would not have in a true open market. The dealers themselves are protected by franchise laws, have specific non-compete market territory that is also protected by law, etc. They have a monopoly on being able to retail a product made by a third party and the third party cannot even protect their brand by being able go direct to consumer. Ford couldn't just say "hey we think you are treating our brand and our customers crappy and are going to set up a store next door" (like how you can have an apple store next door to a best buy)

If this was a true open market then any retailer ford wanted to sell to could order inventory from ford and sell at whatever price, including ford going direct to consumer. Anyone who says this is " true capitalism" is either not aware or does not understand the full picture of how the franchsie system gives non-competitive leverage to a dealer. Any dealer crying capitalism would be the absolute first in line to protect their local franchise laws that prevent open competition and retain their distribution monopoly.

If it was a true open market on both the buy AND sell side I would agree let the prices land where they may...

 

[Frogger22]

There is really a lack of understanding how economics work in this forum. But I’ll say first and foremost if you ordered a truck with a dealer at MSRP and signed any real paperwork then Ford should force that dealer to honor that. That is a Ford company problem not an general American economics problem. But just from a loyalty to customer perspective it would be good business practice for them to honor their word.

But anyone here complaining about this situation and wants things like government intervention forcing set prices would hate the world a lot more if it went that way and Ford was forced by law to sell at a certain price. It’s a very common democrat logical fallacy that they change all the variables, but they expect the same outcome and it’s the same suggestion here. If forced to price things at a set number, firstly and most obvious Ford wouldn’t of spent any money on new innovations and tech meaning in reality the Raptor and Bronco wouldn’t even exist. So you wouldn’t even of known there was a truck you missed out on in the first place. Secondly, even if you ignore that only the most well connected buddies of owners would get these trucks for years to come and you’d be waiting even longer if you even get one at all. Government ruins everything it touches and getting them involved in any of this is a terribly misguided mistake. Just look at other countries that do that sort of stuff and spoiler alert they aren’t the countries pushing the world forward in technology and innovation.

Secondly, everyone complaining about price gouging is looking at this wrongly. Price gouging is generally in times of actual crisis someone raising the prices on things that are a “need” and forcing you to pay that to survive in dire circumstances. And another indicator of price gouging is it only happens in that one area where other areas around have the prices set “normal”. But the increases in prices are happening everywhere across the board in every market globally. You wanting an expensive trophy truck that you don’t actually need does not just make it price gouging, cause you don’t like the prices. It’s a want not a need no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish it so. Even the OP contradicts himself saying “this” ADM is okay, but “that” one isn’t. That is illogical and it would make more sense if you just held the line that none are acceptable instead of having an arbitrary number be the line in the sand. The truck is worth what someone will pay for it period. If people stop paying ADM then they would magically go away. It really isn’t that complicated folks. The trucks are brand new and they haven’t made nearly enough meaning prices will be high. Once production gets cranking and there are more raptors then you will find good prices all over. Just being upset about ADM when there is zero inventory is just nonsense. And also the markets are high in every single industry. So when your business makes more money for raising prices it’s totally fine but if Ford does it then obviously an evil corporation.

Final point, addressing Ford company themselves this is in all honesty a brand new truck model in its infancy being pushed out for the first times during the pandemic and it has caused lots of problems whether you agree with them or not its just the reality. Microchips, shipping, global instability, shutdowns, now war and so on are causing a massive problem for Ford, same as others. Ford may be handling it way worse than other brands or whatnot, but you can not just dismiss the reality of that all impacting the situation. Just sit down and think for a min. what do you think Ford would love to do, but make enough raptors for every single one of you to be happy and loving their trucks. There isn’t some evil conspiracy to stop you from getting the truck by Ford. They love that green and want to give you all a truck as fast as they can.

Now to circle around back to the start, I think Ford would be wise to honor their word and give folks that ordered a truck at MSRP that price. If you don’t have an order at MSRP than you either pay the price of admission to get in early on a brand new truck during all these dark times or you wait till there is supply able to meet demand and you can get a great deal.

There may be problems with Ford and their business model. I’m not defending any of that. I’m simply saying it’s a free market and let it do its thing. If enough folks get hate from Ford and go else where then Ford will adapt or die.

 

[2022 Ruth]

That is not fully accurate, in the instance of car dealers it is not a true capitalist market, car dealers are actually closer to a socialism model at least on the other half of the equation, aquiring and controlling inventory. It is a planned and controlled distribution with specific local monopolies and government protection, it is not openly competitive, and the dealers thrive on that. The dealers take advantage of the lack of competition on the acquisition of inventory and use that advantage along with franchise laws to gain additional leverage over the consumer they would not have in a true open market. The dealers themselves are protected by franchise laws, have specific non-compete market territory that is also protected by law, etc. They have a monopoly on being able to retail a product made by a third party and the third party cannot even protect their brand by being able go direct to consumer. Ford couldn't just say "hey we think you are treating our brand and our customers crappy and are going to set up a store next door" (like how you can have an apple store next door to a best buy)

If this was a true open market then any retailer ford wanted to sell to could order inventory from ford and sell at whatever price, including ford going direct to consumer. Anyone who says this is " true capitalism" is either not aware or does not understand the full picture of how the franchsie system gives non-competitive leverage to a dealer. Any dealer crying capitalism would be the absolute first in line to protect their local franchise laws that prevent open competition and retain their distribution monopoly.

If it was a true open market on both the buy AND sell side I would agree let the prices land where they may...

I see what you are saying from a singular brand standpoint but if people are sick of ford dealers doing this, there are plenty of other non ford dealers not doing ADM. It’s not socialism in the fact that consumers can voice their displeasure by taking their business elsewhere.

There is a Ford dealer here in town that has a new bronco at like 110 grand. Accross the street there is a Toyota dealership with a few 4 runners at MSRP. If the dealer doesnt sell the bronco at 110 grand (and they will) they will lower the price until someone buys it. That is the market responding to the price of something and the dealer changing their price to what people would be willing to pay.

It’s hard to compare standing in bread lines for 6 hours because the govt controls the means of bread production with a dealer marking up a truck to a price that plenty of people would be perfectly happy paying. If companies were doing this with food? Yeah. That would be ****** but no one really needs a ford raptor or ford Bronco

I see where you are coming from but if people are willing to pay luxury prices for an in demand luxury item, I cant imagine buying directly from Ford would change that.

 

[jamanrr]

^ dude there is a mid 90s Supra anniversary edition on BAT right now bringing 160k with 6 days left. It has an accident and 6 previous owners. The days of affordable anything is probably long gone. We will have to order what we want and wait for it. This supply chain crap sucks because the good ole days aren't coming back.

 

[2022 Ruth]

There is really a lack of understanding how economics work in this forum. But I’ll say first and foremost if you ordered a truck with a dealer at MSRP and signed any real paperwork then Ford should force that dealer to honor that. That is a Ford company problem not an general American economics problem. But just from a loyalty to customer perspective it would be good business practice for them to honor their word.

But anyone here complaining about this situation and wants things like government intervention forcing set prices would hate the world a lot more if it went that way and Ford was forced by law to sell at a certain price. It’s a very common democrat logical fallacy that they change all the variables, but they expect the same outcome and it’s the same suggestion here. If forced to price things at a set number, firstly and most obvious Ford wouldn’t of spent any money on new innovations and tech meaning in reality the Raptor and Bronco wouldn’t even exist. So you wouldn’t even of known there was a truck you missed out on in the first place. Secondly, even if you ignore that only the most well connected buddies of owners would get these trucks for years to come and you’d be waiting even longer if you even get one at all. Government ruins everything it touches and getting them involved in any of this is a terribly misguided mistake. Just look at other countries that do that sort of stuff and spoiler alert they aren’t the countries pushing the world forward in technology and innovation.

Secondly, everyone complaining about price gouging is looking at this wrongly. Price gouging is generally in times of actual crisis someone raising the prices on things that are a “need” and forcing you to pay that to survive in dire circumstances. And another indicator of price gouging is it only happens in that one area where other areas around have the prices set “normal”. But the increases in prices are happening everywhere across the board in every market globally. You wanting an expensive trophy truck that you don’t actually need does not just make it price gouging, cause you don’t like the prices. It’s a want not a need no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish it so. Even the OP contradicts himself saying “this” ADM is okay, but “that” one isn’t. That is illogical and it would make more sense if you just held the line that none are acceptable instead of having an arbitrary number be the line in the sand. The truck is worth what someone will pay for it period. If people stop paying ADM then they would magically go away. It really isn’t that complicated folks. The trucks are brand new and they haven’t made nearly enough meaning prices will be high. Once production gets cranking and there are more raptors then you will find good prices all over. Just being upset about ADM when there is zero inventory is just nonsense. And also the markets are high in every single industry. So when your business makes more money for raising prices it’s totally fine but if Ford does it then obviously an evil corporation.

Final point, addressing Ford company themselves this is in all honesty a brand new truck model in its infancy being pushed out for the first times during the pandemic and it has caused lots of problems wether you agree with them or not its just the reality. Microchips, shipping, global instability, shutdowns, now war and so on are causing a massive problem for Ford, same as others. Ford may be handling it way worse than other brands or whatnot, but you can not just dismiss the reality of that all impacting the situation. Just sit down and think for a min. what do you think Ford would love to do, but make enough raptors for every single one of you to be happy and loving their trucks. There isn’t some evil conspiracy to stop you from getting the truck by Ford. They love that green and want to give you all a truck as fast as they can.

Now to circle around back to the start, I think Ford would be wise to honor their word and give folks that ordered a truck at MSRP that price. If you don’t have an order at MSRP than you either pay the price of admission to get in early on a brand new truck during all these dark times or you wait till there is supply able to meet demand and you can get a great deal.

There may be problems with Ford and their business model. I’m not defending any of that. I’m simply saying it’s a free market and let it do its thing. If enough folks get hate from Ford and go else where then Ford will adapt or die.

100% This is only BS if you ordered a truck at MSRP and when the truck shows up, they mark it up. That would lose me as a customer. Everything else is, and should be, market driven. You dont want to buy a high demand, limited quantity 75K truck for 120K? Don’t. If enough people refuse to buy it, then the price will come down. It’s that simple. Or if the supply goes up, then other dealers will have them and will be able to sell them for less since there are more to sell. This is really basic economics. It’s an elementary supply and demand curve.

 

[Frogger22]

I see what you are saying from a singular brand standpoint but if people are sick of ford dealers doing this, there are plenty of other non ford dealers not doing ADM. It’s not socialism in the fact that consumers can voice their displeasure by taking their business elsewhere.

There is a Ford dealer here in town that has a new bronco at like 110 grand. Accross the street there is a Toyota dealership with a few 4 runners at MSRP. If the dealer doesnt sell the bronco at 110 grand (and they will) they will lower the price until someone buys it. That is the market responding to the price of something and the dealer changing their price to what people would be willing to pay.

It’s hard to compare standing in bread lines for 6 hours because the govt controls the means of bread production with a dealer marking up a truck to a price that plenty of people would be perfectly happy paying. If companies were doing this with food? Yeah. That would be ****** but no one really needs a ford raptor or ford Bronco

I see where you are coming from but if people are willing to pay luxury prices for an in demand luxury item, I cant imagine buying directly from Ford would change that.

That is literally exactly what I am saying. If you don’t like fords prices buy your truck somewhere else. If you think you’ll die by not having a brand new raptor RIGHT NOW then they have you by the balls and you have to pay the price of admission or you can wait for the raptors to start pooping out. The stupid price for that Bronco is only there because they have one and maybe that’s the only one around. If there were 20 of them sitting on that lot then they would not be priced that high. If Ford turns off 1,000 customers to get 1 sucker to pay $110k then Ford will eventually die off. It is an unsustainable business model when things return back to normal. Competition is good for the consumer and a perfect window into that is Raptor used to play alone at the sandbox, but now every brand wants to make their own raptor to play at the playground.

If Ford offered you MSRP and you signed and then they change their mind later that’s BS and you all have valid reason to complain no doubt. The irony is if times were great and they overproduced the raptor and suddenly prices started tanking they wouldn’t let you lower your price later when the raptor shows up. They would hold you to that deal signed before, But when it benefits them they change the deal. It’s slimy business model and Ford corporate should honor agreed deals if for no other reason than self interest. But that should be a Ford decision and not a regulatory decision from the feds. The power of your wallet matters and if enough ppl go across the street to another brand then things will move. Ppl don’t realize this but you (and your money) are the power to make things change.

 

[GordoJay]

There is a Ford dealer here in town that has a new bronco at like 110 grand. Accross the street there is a Toyota dealership with a few 4 runners at MSRP.

Around here the Toyota dealers gouge worse than Ford. If I was you I would jump on the Toy and forget the Bronco.

 

[xlover]

I see what you are saying from a singular brand standpoint but if people are sick of ford dealers doing this, there are plenty of other non ford dealers not doing ADM. It’s not socialism in the fact that consumers can voice their displeasure by taking their business elsewhere.

There is a Ford dealer here in town that has a new bronco at like 110 grand. Accross the street there is a Toyota dealership with a few 4 runners at MSRP. If the dealer doesnt sell the bronco at 110 grand (and they will) they will lower the price until someone buys it. That is the market responding to the price of something and the dealer changing their price to what people would be willing to pay.

It’s hard to compare standing in bread lines for 6 hours because the govt controls the means of bread production with a dealer marking up a truck to a price that plenty of people would be perfectly happy paying. If companies were doing this with food? Yeah. That would be ****** but no one really needs a ford raptor or ford Bronco

I see where you are coming from but if people are willing to pay luxury prices for an in demand luxury item, I cant imagine buying directly from Ford would change that.

I hear you that this is a luxury good so it’s not nearly as serious as planned economies in the third world… but the overall point stands that there is significant government protection of dealer franchises that allows them leverage over consumers they would not have in a completely free market retail system.

Yes there are competing brands but the products are not fully fungible a Toyota truck is not an exact 1-1 swap with a ford truck, different options, style, etc.

The dealer model is the problem, ford being able to both sell direct AND sell to whomever else wanted to retail their products would make it a much fairer market for all parties. There is a reason why car dealers, even before chip shortages, are (with exceptions) generally regarded as using scumbag business practices. It is because they have significant legal protection that even the oem brands cannot do anything about. It would also mean when ford said “this is the price we want to sell this for” it would be hard for a dealer to charge more than that if ford could just send inventory to retailers that support the brand positively.

 

[2022 Ruth]

I hear you that this is a luxury good so it’s not nearly as serious as planned economies in the third world… but the overall point stands that there is significant government protection of dealer franchises that allows them leverage over consumers they would not have in a completely free market retail system.

Yes there are competing brands but the products are not fully fungible a Toyota truck is not an exact 1-1 swap with a ford truck, different options, style, etc.

The dealer model is the problem, ford being able to both sell direct AND sell to whomever else wanted to retail their products would make it a much fairer market for all parties. There is a reason why car dealers, even before chip shortages, are (with exceptions) generally regarded as using scumbag business practices. It is because they have significant legal protection that even the oem brands cannot do anything about. It would also mean when ford said “this is the price we want to sell this for” it would be hard for a dealer to charge more than that if ford could just send inventory to retailers that support the brand positively.

There is no problem, though. If no one bought these vehicles that are marked up, the dealers would lower the price. People are buying them so prices stay up. Market determines the price. That applies to anything. That’s how our almost all of our economy works. If you had a lot full of $100,000 F150s and no one bought them, guess what would happen?

When the old body style GT500 came out, I wanted one and went to look at them. Dealer was asking 12K over sticker. I said “I don’t want to pay 12K over sticker” so I didn’t buy it. Then I went about my day.

What if you had a house that 10 people were willing to pay you a million dollars for but the tax auditors site said it was appraised at 750K, would you sell it to one of the people with a million dollars in hand or the guy saying “but the auditors site suggests it’s worth $750,000 so you should sell it to me for that”?