Livernois Motorsports Fuel Pump Upgrade

[CoronaRaptor]

Damn this is some good reading. How did I miss this thread????

It's getting better. Damn, I'm learning a lot on this thread. Very informative information from all parties involved

 

[6.2Canadian]

Jim,

I am confused on this. If you state the stock pump is good to 550, it wouldn't be out of fuel, so why would an upgraded pump show any different data below this point? If the stock one won't pressure drop, neither will an an aftermarket one of higher flow.

Also, I am even more confused on the comment about a single pump versus a twin pump. Are you saying that a higher output single pump isn't an upgrade? That's how it reads, and I certainly know that isn't possible. Volume is volume, no matter if it comes from one pump, or two. A single 500lph pump will support essentially the same as 2 255 pumps. So if you can do the job with one drop in, you should. Now, there is of course a limit that you would hit with our single pump, and then we run a BAP (we have been doing them for 14+ years, and in 14+ years have only had 3 failed units). It's all in how they are installed.

I would really like more insight into this logic. as it really does nothing for the confirmation or counter argument about our setup.

If you aren't out of full, the pump won't help. Just like bigger fuel injectors don't add horsepower or help if you don't need them, this is no different.

So your saying if you aren't out of fuel you don't need the pump ? I am running over 500 rwhp with the stock pump and 47# injectors... And haven't had a single hick up yet

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Jim,

I am confused on this. If you state the stock pump is good to 550, it wouldn't be out of fuel, so why would an upgraded pump show any different data below this point? If the stock one won't pressure drop, neither will an an aftermarket one of higher flow.

Also, I am even more confused on the comment about a single pump versus a twin pump. Are you saying that a higher output single pump isn't an upgrade? That's how it reads, and I certainly know that isn't possible. Volume is volume, no matter if it comes from one pump, or two. A single 500lph pump will support essentially the same as 2 255 pumps. So if you can do the job with one drop in, you should. Now, there is of course a limit that you would hit with our single pump, and then we run a BAP (we have been doing them for 14+ years, and in 14+ years have only had 3 failed units). It's all in how they are installed.

I would really like more insight into this logic. as it really does nothing for the confirmation or counter argument about our setup.

If you aren't out of full, the pump won't help. Just like bigger fuel injectors don't add horsepower or help if you don't need them, this is no different.

Your right the truck wasn't running out of fuel, or wasn't going to even on the stock pump. We've seen that happen and its around 560+ RWHP. We usually limit our customers to 550 RWHP for safety sake. We've never tested the Livernois pump to that point. When we tested it at 535 RWHP (approximately) on MetroNYC's truck we weren't at the limit of the stock fuel pump but we noticed the flow to be right about what we would see with the stock pump. That leads me to think it wouldn't support any more power than the stock pump.

Now we have only worked on 1 truck in person and 2-3 mail order with this fuel pump upgrade. Since Livernois has obviously done more can you explain to me what the difference is between the two pumps, how they each flow, their rate, and why it's actually better? Do you really not need to make any changes in the tuning? Because all you can do is raise the alternator voltage to get more output from the pump, same principal as a boost a pump your just driving it harder than design. We've never installed a BAP, we've had Zero related Failures in 20 years doing business.

JimIII

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Your right the truck wasn't running out of fuel, or wasn't going to even on the stock pump. We've seen that happen and its around 560+ RWHP. We usually limit our customers to 550 RWHP for safety sake. We've never tested the Livernois pump to that point. When we tested it at 535 RWHP (approximately) on MetroNYC's truck we weren't at the limit of the stock fuel pump but we noticed the fuel pump duty cycle to be right about what we would see with the stock pump. That leads me to think it wouldn't support any more power than the stock pump.

Now we have only worked on 1 truck in person and 2-3 mail order with this fuel pump upgrade. Since Livernois has obviously done more can you explain to me what the difference is between the two pumps, how they each flow, their rate, and why it's actually better? Do you really not need to make any changes in the tuning? Because all you can do is raise the alternator voltage to get more output from the pump, same principal as a boost a pump your just driving it harder than design. We've never installed a BAP, we've had Zero related Failures in 20 years doing business.

I understand bigger fueling components won't add power, but what they will do is usually relieve duty cycles. I did not see a change from the Livernois pump to the Stock pump on this 1 truck.

JimIII

But we've already determined it's installed incorrectly, no other Raptors with this pump stall on decel, or die when it's below 1/4 tank, so this should be a red flag right there. So judging a part after seeing it one time, with an incorrect install is not a fair assessment of it's capabilities. I have seen it used when we first started offering it. It was on a pro-charged Raptor with our 6.6 stroker, heads, cams, and FRPP 80# injectors. At 4700ish RPM the fuel pressure would start to drop, and the customer was adamant not to do a BAP as he had been burned by a shop on a Shelby after they installed it incorrectly. So, we dropped the tank and started to get to work. Being we are in the automotive engineering mecca, we reached out to our OEM and fellow OEM suppler's to get to work on it. After all of this, we landed on our solution and began testing. It instantly went from dropping pressure around 4700, to holding it steady past 6300.

I am just surprised you passed judgement in one time of seeing a vehicle with a part that wasn't even installed by your company to make a statement such as that. We would never go through and make a determination on a products benefit when we weren't the ones putting it on because we know not everyone is as meticulous as we are.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

I think the problem Metro is having with his fuel gauge is most likely the fuel level float is hung up or catching on something when the fuel level drops. Which should not hinder the fuel pump's ability. Since we didn't install it I can not say for sure what's going on but it's the likely cause.

I wanted to sell this pump to my customers as an upgrade. When Metro brought his truck in we wanted to see an improvement. With the little information given or technical data to support it I had to make a judgement call after seeing the way his truck performed. Until I see evidence to support otherwise I tell all my customers we are leaving them at a maximum of 550 RWHP due to lack of fueling ability.

 

[Jimbo]

I think the problem Metro is having with his fuel gauge is most likely the fuel level float is hung up or catching on something when the fuel level drops. Which should not hinder the fuel pump's ability. Since we didn't install it I can not say for sure what's going on but it's the likely cause.

I wanted to sell this pump to my customers as an upgrade. When Metro brought his truck in we wanted to see an improvement. With the little information given or technical data to support it I had to make a judgement call after seeing the way his truck performed. Until I see evidence to support otherwise I tell all my customers we are leaving them at a maximum of 550 RWHP due to lack of fueling ability.

Sounds like you and @Livernois Motorsports should work out them sending you a unit for testing. If you're happy with it, you can sell/recommend their setup, if not, you can send it back.

EDIT: and @Livernois Motorsports can send me their heads/cams to test... and I'll never send them back

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Sounds like you and @Livernois Motorsports should work out them sending you a unit for testing. If you're happy with it, you can sell/recommend their setup, if not, you can send it back.

EDIT: and @Livernois Motorsports can send me their heads/cams to test... and I'll never send them back

We would never have a problem with that JDM has bought a good deal of stuff from us over the years, so we are always happy to help the community grow. The only thing I know for certain is third party software doesn't have all of the fuel control stuff figured out, so that might be impacting some things as well. When we moved to our own software we realized just how much we were missing out on for being able to tune these properly.

Nice on the heads...

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I think the problem Metro is having with his fuel gauge is most likely the fuel level float is hung up or catching on something when the fuel level drops. Which should not hinder the fuel pump's ability. Since we didn't install it I can not say for sure what's going on but it's the likely cause.

I wanted to sell this pump to my customers as an upgrade. When Metro brought his truck in we wanted to see an improvement. With the little information given or technical data to support it I had to make a judgement call after seeing the way his truck performed. Until I see evidence to support otherwise I tell all my customers we are leaving them at a maximum of 550 RWHP due to lack of fueling ability.

and what of the stalling when coming to a stop? to me it sure sounds like something is moving around in the tank, or the bucket is broken.

As for gauging something off of duty cycle, really? These don't have an electronic returnless system, they have a mechanical returnless. So, like the 2011+ mustangs, and all other Copperhead processor equipped vehicles (save the GT500), the FPDM is only a 2 speed controller. Low flow, and high flow. So no matter what fuel pump you run it's going to show the same duty cycle since duty cycle is measured by fuel flow, which is calculated from the engine. It looks at injector flow rate and PW to figure out flow, and then commands low speed, or high speed duty cycle based on this. You can change the switch point, but the duty cycle is always going to be two values.

We have no problem explaining our products, methodology, results, etc. But if you are going to bring data into the conversation, make certain it actually is relevant to the conversation. I would have expected more out of another vendor, at least that they have a knowledge on the inner workings of the fuel system and ECM logic of the vehicle they are discussing.

It's unfortunate that another shop that is supposed to know about these trucks are posting blatantly inaccurate information. This is required learning on Day 1 to be able to properly tune, and upgrade these trucks. I am not certain how you would be able to properly calibrate, or give advice without knowing this basic fact on the fuel system.

The worst part is by telling a forum member incorrect information, there are other people out there that will make the wrong choices because of this lack of knowledge. You've now taken a customer that bought a part from us, which works wonderfully, and made him think that we are the devil for selling it. All while the reality being that the shop that installed it didn't do their job correctly, and the shop that tuned it gave him bad information because they don't know how it works.

As vendors, we are supposed to work together to better the market, but spewing out incorrect information, and then insisting that it's correct will only hold back the community.

 

[Bulletnjm]

I am thoroughly impressed with the amount of knowledge being thrown back and forth between vendors, in such a friendly matter. Reading through this thread i have learned a lot. Regardless of what is being said both companies still impress me.

 

[metronyc]

Is it just me, or does a person lose a lot of credibility when they can't even put a sentence together?

After massive stroke and heart attack i have this privilege and i don't ask for compassion.