GEN3 Buyback case has been opened.

[FordTechOne]

I haven’t seen any cases where a court has required the consumer to prove that their work has not led to the problem, and “modification” is specifically used in multiple statements. Are we now saying that anything other than an oil filter or light bulb is a “modification” and now not covered by MM and manufacturer warranty? My sunroof has tint on it, so I’m sure that somehow caused the glass to heat up therefore throwing the mechanism off track. Or, I turned off the double honk in Forscan so that’s why my side view mirror intermittently loses power.

You’re not understanding that there needs to be a plausible correlation. Tint by itself is not going to affect ROP operation. Nor does it “void” your warranty. Now if your tint peeled off and rolled up into the mechanism, that’s an example of a non-warrantable condition.

Your ForScan module configuration changes are actually a good example. How do you know your module configuration changes aren’t causing the mirror issue? You don’t know, because you have zero know of how the vehicle architecture software is written. We’ve seen people on here make calibration changes that cause issues in other systems that would seem unrelated. The manufacturer’s warranty even specifically spells it out; have you ever bothered to read your warranty? It’s not an insurance policy.

WHAT IS COVERED?
Your NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY gives you specific legal rights. You may have other rights that vary from state to state. Under your New Vehicle Limited Warranty if:
- your Ford vehicle is properly operated and maintained, and
- was taken to a Ford dealership for a warranted repair during the warranty period,
then authorized Ford Motor Company dealers will, without charge, repair, replace, or adjust all parts on your vehicle that malfunction or fail during normal use during the applicable coverage period due to a manufacturing defect in factory-supplied materials or factory workmanship.


WHAT IS NOT COVERED UNDER THE NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY?
Damage Caused By:
• accidents, collision or objects striking the vehicle (including driving through a car wash)
• theft, vandalism, or riot
• fire or explosion
• using contaminated or improper fuel/fluids
• customer-applied chemicals or accidental spills
• driving through water deep enough to cause water to be ingested into any component. i.e. powertrain components
• misuse of the vehicle, such a driving over curbs, overloading, racing or using the vehicle as a permanent stationary power source
Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
• alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis, electronics or their components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company
• tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not limited to exhaust and intake systems)
• the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part or software (other than a certified emissions part or software) or any part or software (Ford or non-Ford) designed for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or software and performance “chips”.

I agree that people cause detrimental harm to their vehicles and then attempt a warranty claim. It’s in the manufacturer’s interest to deny every warranty claim and blame it on the consumer and that is why we have protection laws. Luckily, MM does in fact cover modifications outside oil changes and windshield wiper blades. The mindset of denying everything possible is why there are entire law firms devoted to advocating for the consumer in auto claims.

First off, it’s not in the manufacturer’s best interest to “deny every warranty claim”. Not only is that a violation of federal law, they would have unsatisfied customers. Warranty parts are shipped back to the manufacturer to determine why they failed and make improvements to prevent recurrences. There is no reason to deny a legitimate warranty claim, nor have I ever seen that from any reputable company in my 2 decades in the industry.

Second, law firms exist to make money. They’re ambulance chasers who don’t have the consumer nor the manufacturer’s best interests in mind; they are out for themselves, nothing more.

 

[Luchh224]

You’re not understanding that there needs to be a plausible correlation. Tint by itself is not going to affect ROP operation. Nor does it “void” your warranty. Now if your tint peeled off and rolled up into the mechanism, that’s an example of a non-warrantable condition.

Your ForScan module configuration changes are actually a good example. How do you know your module configuration changes aren’t causing the mirror issue? You don’t know, because you have zero know of how the vehicle architecture software is written. We’ve seen people on here make calibration changes that cause issues in other systems that would seem unrelated. The manufacturer’s warranty even specifically spells it out; have you ever bothered to read your warranty? It’s not an insurance policy.

WHAT IS COVERED?
Your NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY gives you specific legal rights. You may have other rights that vary from state to state. Under your New Vehicle Limited Warranty if:
- your Ford vehicle is properly operated and maintained, and
- was taken to a Ford dealership for a warranted repair during the warranty period,
then authorized Ford Motor Company dealers will, without charge, repair, replace, or adjust all parts on your vehicle that malfunction or fail during normal use during the applicable coverage period due to a manufacturing defect in factory-supplied materials or factory workmanship.


WHAT IS NOT COVERED UNDER THE NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY?
Damage Caused By:
• accidents, collision or objects striking the vehicle (including driving through a car wash)
• theft, vandalism, or riot
• fire or explosion
• using contaminated or improper fuel/fluids
• customer-applied chemicals or accidental spills
• driving through water deep enough to cause water to be ingested into any component. i.e. powertrain components
• misuse of the vehicle, such a driving over curbs, overloading, racing or using the vehicle as a permanent stationary power source
Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
• alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis, electronics or their components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company
• tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not limited to exhaust and intake systems)
• the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part or software (other than a certified emissions part or software) or any part or software (Ford or non-Ford) designed for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or software and performance “chips”.


First off, it’s not in the manufacturer’s best interest to “deny every warranty claim”. Not only is that a violation of federal law, they would have unsatisfied customers. Warranty parts are shipped back to the manufacturer to determine why they failed and make improvements to prevent recurrences. There is no reason to deny a legitimate warranty claim, nor have I ever seen that from any reputable company in my 2 decades in the industry.

Second, law firms exist to make money. They’re ambulance chasers who don’t have the consumer nor the manufacturer’s best interests in mind; they are out for themselves, nothing more.

I quoted part of this exact excerpt somewhere else in the thread, but it’s assisting into what I am saying with that while they cannot cover the aftermarket part, obviously, it doesn’t warrant a denial of a warranty claim just because a part is aftermarket AS LONG AS that after market part was not the cause of the issue. Here is the page that I pulled it from. Now, the wording here can be tricky, as it says FAILURE of an aftermarket part. Well technically, none of the aftermarket parts installed had failed. And nothing that the parts touch have technically “failed”. The ACC has no failed or given me any faults or issues, neither have the bumper sensors. The truck has been having the gauge cluster shit off while driving, and I have experienced a complete truck shutdown while driving as well.

With that said, will they say “we cannot figure out why the truck gauge cluster fails. We cannot determine the root cause of the truck shutdowns and lock ups, and so we are going to say it was because of your aftermarket bumper installation.” They were not able to prove it was my stuff, or their stuff in this hypothetical situation. I’m not arguing what you’re saying, I’m just getting down to the nitty gritty at this point.

The fins have given me issues, and I can understand that BECAUSE i removed fins and made it not stock, they could deny that and tell me I’m an idiot, makes sense.

 

[DFS]

I quoted part of this exact excerpt somewhere else in the thread, but it’s assisting into what I am saying with that while they cannot cover the aftermarket part, obviously, it doesn’t warrant a denial of a warranty claim just because a part is aftermarket AS LONG AS that after market part was not the cause of the issue. Here is the page that I pulled it from. Now, the wording here can be tricky, as it says FAILURE of an aftermarket part. Well technically, none of the aftermarket parts installed had failed. And nothing that the parts touch have technically “failed”. The ACC has no failed or given me any faults or issues, neither have the bumper sensors. The truck has been having the gauge cluster shit off while driving, and I have experienced a complete truck shutdown while driving as well.

With that said, will they say “we cannot figure out why the truck gauge cluster fails. We cannot determine the root cause of the truck shutdowns and lock ups, and so we are going to say it was because of your aftermarket bumper installation.” They were not able to prove it was my stuff, or their stuff in this hypothetical situation. I’m not arguing what you’re saying, I’m just getting down to the nitty gritty at this point.

The fins have given me issues, and I can understand that BECAUSE i removed fins and made it not stock, they could deny that and tell me I’m an idiot, makes sense.

View attachment 406811

No one has actually denied or approved warranty yet, right? This is all just a tire iron for now since it sounds like dealer hasn't even had time to do an actual diagnosis yet? Having a hard time keeping up with this lol

 

[Luchh224]

No one has actually denied or approved warranty yet, right? This is all just a tire iron for now since it sounds like dealer hasn't even had time to do an actual diagnosis yet? Having a hard time keeping up with this lol

Lol yes sorry, this thread was originally what the likelihood of a warranty denial or buyback denial was based off of my aftermarket bumper. Friday they will begin to diagnose issues.

Shit got outta hand real quick in here.

 

[John M BUNMAN]

MM does not apply to vehicle modifications. The term “aftermarket” in MM refers to replacement equivalent parts manufactured by someone other than the OEM. So replacement oil filters, air filters, wiper blades, etc. An example would be a consumer coming in with an engine noise concern; the dealer/manufacturer cannot deem it non-warrantable just because the oil filter is a Purolator and not an OEM. However, if they disassemble the filter and find that the media came apart, then the failure would be non-warrantable.

Aftermarket modifications are a completely different category. You’re not using an equivalent part; you’re changing the configuration of the vehicle with unknown variables. When there is a failure of a factory component or system related/attributed to the modification, it’s non-warrantable. That doesn’t mean your warranty is void, just that the specific repair is not covered.

It is not the manufacturer’s responsibility to prove that your aftermarket modification caused the failure, only that the wear or failure is attributable to the modification. You can’t expect any manufacturer to spend millions of dollars re-testing a product every time someone makes the claim that their modifications aren’t responsible for a related failure; that’s simply ridiculous. The burden of proof is on the person who modified the vehicle outside of the factory design and engineering specifications.

Exactly why I don’t modify any of my vehicles while I have my extended warranty. Well that and I’m to poor to buy any mods and with these rolling MFing Computers, I’m lucky to have the KSA’s to put the Devils Drink in the tank

I always relate the story of my sons 2010 Mustang. 80k miles cracked block!! ESP looked for ANY excuse to deny the 8k repair. Ask my service manager for complete vehicle maintenance history, pictures of every square inch of the engine, asking about headers, exhaust mods etc. Luckily it had been serviced at my Dealership its entire life.
It took them 2- Weeks to approve the repair, but in the end, they stepped up covered everything to include the rental.
In other I’m to port and scared to do anything to vehicles now except DETAIL THEM and I only use Ford Approved Detail Supplies and Polisher.

 

[G2G3Iconic]

Exactly why I don’t modify any of my vehicles while I have my extended warranty. Well that and I’m to poor to buy any mods and with these rolling MFing Computers, I’m lucky to have the KSA’s to put the Devils Drink in the tank

I always relate the story of my sons 2010 Mustang. 80k miles cracked block!! ESP looked for ANY excuse to deny the 8k repair. Ask my service manager for complete vehicle maintenance history, pictures of every square inch of the engine, asking about headers, exhaust mods etc. Luckily it had been serviced at my Dealership its entire life.
It them 2- Weeks to approve the repair, but in the end, they stepped up covered everything to include the rental.
In other I’m to port and scared to do anything to vehicles now except DETAIL THEM and I only use Ford Approved Detail Supplies and Polisher.

This

Mad props to anyone who wants to take a 100K truck and modify it to their tastes. We at FRF are a fickle bunch. On one hand members blasted me for taking the trim off to have my truck covered in Xpel Stealth, saying it would never be the same. On the other hand we have so many adding significant aftermarket mods to their tastes. Add in that vehicles in general are becoming so technical (never mind an offroad race truck) that what an inclined amature mechanic used to be able to do, now requires a computer degree from MIT. My skills got passed long ago. I cant stomach the risk of messing with anything electrical or engine performance. This truck already exceeds my offroad capabilites, and I spend a lot of time offroading. I do have an old XJ that is modded out. Currently running 40 inch tires, with a complete rebuild of the suspension and front and rear ends. Easy to mod, easy to fix. No warranty needed.

 

[AkamiNW]

No desire to do anything to mine other than wheels and tint. I bought the premium warranty package and Ford service plan and intend to keep things in house and factory for as long as those are in place.

My outgoing GMC Sierra's 6.2L V8 shit the bed out of warranty and it cost me a fortune. Never again.

 

[smurfslayer]

15 U.S.C. 2302 (C) is specific to aftermarket/non manufacturer products and maintenance.

“Hacking” up your vehicle and it directly causing the issue is not covered. Modifying a part and it failing, but the modification not being a direct cause should be covered under MM. Either way, the burden of proof is on the dealer/rep rather than consumer.

I think we are just seeing a different mindset between consumer and manufacturer/rep. Looking for any reason to deny warranty and immediately blaming the consumer is why we have consumer protection laws thankfully.

This reminds me. I think I saw you mention something about idle RPM. I agree that 700+ causes most of my shaking to go away. Do you have any info regarding this? It’s driving me nuts, I wish there was a way to increase idle speed a hair to get it smooth.

MM does not apply to vehicle modifications. The term “aftermarket” in MM refers to replacement equivalent parts manufactured by someone other than the OEM. So replacement oil filters, air filters, wiper blades, etc. An example would be a consumer coming in with an engine noise concern; the dealer/manufacturer cannot deem it non-warrantable just because the oil filter is a Purolator and not an OEM. However, if they disassemble the filter and find that the media came apart, then the failure would be non-warrantable.

Aftermarket modifications are a completely different category. You’re not using an equivalent part; you’re changing the configuration of the vehicle with unknown variables. When there is a failure of a factory component or system related/attributed to the modification, it’s non-warrantable. That doesn’t mean your warranty is void, just that the specific repair is not covered.

It is not the manufacturer’s responsibility to prove that your aftermarket modification caused the failure, only that the wear or failure is attributable to the modification. You can’t expect any manufacturer to spend millions of dollars re-testing a product every time someone makes the claim that their modifications aren’t responsible for a related failure; that’s simply ridiculous. The burden of proof is on the person who modified the vehicle outside of the factory design and engineering specifications.

First off, OP is not in a lemon law suit, he's seeking a Ford buy back, which is a voluntary, customer service action that is completely discretionary.

@FordTechOne is really saying a lot of the same things as OP, just from a different perspective. In a buy back, if Ford feels strongly that 1) you modified the truck and 2) it's contributing to at least some failures, it won't be bought back. OP could still sue, but Ford has been willing to buy back on vehicles they couldn't source parts for, just to keep customers in Fords, so if they aren't willing to buy back, where I'm from, we call that "clueful information".

The really important points here from my perspective, having prevailed in a lemon law suit many moons ago.
1) The Raptor has more tech than the Apollo rockets and space shuttle. Combined. Several factors more.
2) The amount of interconnected networks (plural) on the Raptor is mind boggling. We may think our mods won't affect anything, but when the fog lights are controlled by the network, we need to be seriously considering our mods.

You may be dedicated to insist your mod didn't do anything and maybe you're right, but, Ford has all the engineering specs, as built data and engineers on staff who can speak to how modifications can negatively impact vehicle performance. As a consumer, we don't have that and in any adversarial warranty concern, we have to hire experts to do this. I don't think Ford's source code is well and fully understood. Some tuners have made successful HP/TQ gains, but you can bet money that there is some compromise, in some reliability, durability, or usability as a result.

I'm inclined to believe it's worth pulling the bumper, restoring the shutters - you may need a tech's help to get the positioning and retest at your own expense. You have enough money to buy a Raptor + an aftermarket bumper - which is more than I paid for 6x KO2's last I checked, so bite the bullet and do some self troubleshooting on that. Yes, the dealer still needs to check over the display going out, but make their life a little easier by giving them known parameters to work with.

 

[dmaustin]

To each his own; I not a modification guy, particularly for these reasons. I didn't spend $90k to add parts made by some company that be gone next year. I know plenty of people do it; just not confident that a modification wouldn't cause some type of issue. Besides that; I am not mechanically inclined and wouldn't attempt any modification. I categorize mods with all the Hondas that are modified like crazy; but those cars are $20k and not a $90k Baja truck. Not downing anyone that does mods; I would just have bad luck that something would go wrong.

 

[Oldfart]

I have been doing this for 35 years, and in the past decade vehicles have become either so sensitive or so smart the littlest change can have big consequences.

Yep! I was really thankful to have FTO in here to give me a heads up when my truck was new and I was going to piggyback a feed from the high beam circuit and he explained the several ways that doing that can cause a huge mess in the electronics, including bricking the BCM. I had no idea the extent that everything is so interconnected and reading back and forth with everything else, and any changes whacks things out.