Full Race's "Gen 2.5" Raptor build

[Wfo]

Geoff, my late production 18 is getting some love this fall or early spring, it has 83k and I’ve changed oil every 3k with amsoil synthetic. I just started to get a mild cam phaser rattle on cold start. I’ve had full race rad and tranny cooler on since around 7k miles as well as Svc intercooler and Goose stage 2 custom tune. I have powermax stage 2 turbos and ams adapters that I’ve port matched” yours weren’t out when I bought these”. Also form line manifolds, ams downpipes, ams tubes, Cobb intake. When I do phasers with updated parts I will also install a new water pump. I figure since the valve cover will be off I will upgrade to coyote rockers and lifters. What springs as there are a few options?

 

[full-race geoff]

What springs as there are a few options?

Wow you are ahead of the curve!! I like the GSC spring kit the most, Dave @ headgames talks about those springs a little in their video if you get a chance to watch

 

[Wfo]

Here is the vid!!!
I fully believe it’s cheaper to do it right the first time rather than overlooking a few items then having catastrophic failure in the future!!!! Pay once cry once!!!

 

[JCT]

Cams need to happen. The Gen2 ecoboost cams are similar to coyote cams. If you can, post on kelford cams Instagram and Facebook asking for gen 2 raptor cams, I’ve been at it and if they see more interest hopefully we can get them to commit

1. The production ford gt cams are not meaningfully bigger than the f150 cams. And ford charges $6000 for 4, if you have a vin #

2. Valve springs + gen 3 metal chain guides/lifters/rockers are mandatory for a camshaft upgrade on any gen 2 engine



I agree staying gen2 makes the most sense. If you are looking for a used engine I think the 2021 Lincoln Navigator is what I’d look for. Good chance it has many of the updated parts already (still confirm with the vin # before pulling the trigger)

You could even consider a new oem shortblock or longblock and apply the gen3 parts yourself. it’s a good opportunity to build a stout power plant.
View attachment 466089
Short Block 1
hl7z6009b
View attachment 466090Ford
F150. With turbo. With high output engine. To 2/26/18. From 2/26/18.
$3,058.34

Note: non HO short black is about half the price yet extremely similar internally

Short Block 1
hl3z6009b
View attachment 466091Ford
Expedition, Navigator. F150. With turbo. Without high output engine. From 2/26/18.
$1,729.01

Lastly - Goosetuned is excellent, we have many mutual satisfied customers - keep in mind he tunes Cobb only.

If you’re using hpt/SCT there are excellent options near you in Michigan like Greg banish (former oem calibrator, amazing with hpt)

On the cam front, I'll do as you have suggested. Have you heard of MMR? They are focused on Coyote engines, but they make some very nice looking timing parts and engine internals. I continue to hope that they will get into the Ecoboost business.

 

[dillard09]

How far along are you on this @full-race geoff ? Im really looking forward to it as i have a very similar motor build to you.

 

[taco_drifter]

@full-race geoff what are you doing for the rear axle?

 

[Wfo]

Are the ML3E-6090-BA and MLE-6C064-EA cylinder heads the same as the raptor heads? I found a set on eBay for 425 shipped each. My truck is my daily so it makes more sense to swap heads with updated parts.

 

[full-race geoff]

I fully believe it’s cheaper to do it right the first time rather than overlooking a few items then having catastrophic failure in the future!!!!

100% agree, these trucks are awesome. Well worth the effort to get right.

On the cam front, I'll do as you have suggested. Have you heard of MMR? They are focused on Coyote engines, but they make some very nice looking timing parts and engine internals. I continue to hope that they will get into the Ecoboost business.

I’ve reached out to MMR and they didn’t seem overly eager to support these engines.

I hope that sentiment changes once warranty’s end and serious enthusiasts start taking their 3.5L engines into their own hands like the 5.0 crowd

How far along are you on this @full-race geoff ? Im really looking forward to it as i have a very similar motor build to you.

I’m at the very beginning of this project - I’m planning on a busy october and November to get the truck rolling and driving on the new frame and suspension. Finding time for my own projects is always the challenge!

@full-race geoff what are you doing for the rear axle?

Oem gen 3 raptor axle with gussets welded along the mounts (image of gusseting shown on page 1)

Are the ML3E-6090-BA and MLE-6C064-EA cylinder heads the same as the raptor heads? I found a set on eBay for 425 shipped each. My truck is my daily so it makes more sense to swap heads with updated parts.

I will check when I’m back at the computer tonite and get back to you

 

[TheClaw]

Engine:
Once the turbo kit install was knocked out, I documented the Gen 3 engine upgrades that will improve Gen 2 reliability.

View attachment 465071
The HL3Z (2017-2020) phasers get all the attention, but most mechanics seem unaware that replacing with the ML3Z (2021+) phasers is only part of the solution. RBM figured out that there is a ton of compatibility between the Gen2 and Gen3 engines. Metal timing chain guides eliminate the plastic failure point (Red arrow below), coyote lifters/rockers optimize cam:valve actuation, it’s all a good idea to update.


View attachment 465880
^^^Fun fact: the "roller rocker" cam followers on the Gen 2 / Gen 3 Ecoboost and Coyote engines are often called rocker arms, however they're actually follower fingers (similar to Honda's base K-series engines from the early 2000s era) and fit underneath the cam lobes instead of on top of them as a true rocker arm operates. These function somewhat like the buckets found on the Gen1 ecoboost except that the opposite end of the finger rides on a hydraulic plunger, providing dynamic lash adjustment.

______________________________

The following list of Gen3 engine parts will upgrade your Gen2 weak points:

Gen3 Metal Tensioner Arm - Driver's Side (LH): ML3Z-6K255-A
Gen3 Metal Tensioner Arm - Passenger Side (RH): ML3Z-6K255-B
Gen3 Right Timing Chain Tensioner: ML3Z-6L266-B
Gen3 (and Gen 2) Timing Chain: HL3Z-6268-A
(24) Gen3 Valve Lifter Lash Adjusters (coyote 5.0L lifters): BR3Z-6500-A
(24) Gen3 Roller Rocker Finger Followers (2.04 ratio, 18-23 coyote 5.0L rockers): ML3Z-6564-A
(2) Gen3 Engine Timing Camshaft Sprocket (aka Phasers): ML3Z-6C525-A
(2) Gen3 Engine Timing Camshaft Sprocket (aka Phasers): ML3Z-6256-A

Gen2 engine Parts that should be replaced at the same time:
Gen2 Engine Timing Cover Gasket - BR3Z-6020-A
Gen2 Engine Crankshaft Pulley - HL3Z-6312-A *or ATI Part #917317 to really fix it
Gen2 Crankshaft Pulley Bolt - HL3Z-6A340-A
Gen2 Oil Pump - HL3Z-6600-A
Gen2 plastic chain guide A - HL3Z-6B274-A
Gen2 plastic chain guide B - HL3Z-6B274-B
Gen2 Left Timing Chain Tensioner - HL3Z-6L266-A
Gen2 Water Pump - JL3Z-8501-B
Gen2 water pump Gasket A - HL3Z-8507-A
Gen2 water pump Gasket B - HL3Z-8507-B
Gen2 Water Pump O-Ring - BR3Z-8527-A
Gen2 Engine Intake Manifold Gasket - HL3Z-9439-C
Gen2 Valve Cover Gasket - Passenger Side (RH) HL3Z-6584-A
Gen2 Valve Cover Gasket - Driver's Side (LH) ML3Z-6584-G

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Thanks for the write up I’m knee deep into my cam phaser repair. Was installing the updated phasers when I noticed the cause of the rattle initially.

The pin that goes in the notch completely sheered off. Causing damage the the cam shaft notch.

Looks like I need new cams. I’m curious if there’s any other further damage as I heard a snapping noose in the rear while turning the cams. Possible valve spring?

Any aftermarket recommendations if needing replacement? If it can happen this time it can happen again if I’m pushing more power…

 

[full-race geoff]

Are the ML3E-6090-BA and MLE-6C064-EA cylinder heads the same as the raptor heads? I found a set on eBay for 425 shipped each. My truck is my daily so it makes more sense to swap heads with updated parts.

ML3E is the base 3.5L (non HO) engine. As far as I can tell they're the same as the raptor heads. I could not find any difference in alloys, oil galleys, etc. The valves are different materials, although the cams and valvetrain are virtually identical

the MLE is a 3.0L nano engine used on the Explorer ST, police interceptor and others. great engine but definitely not compatible

The pin that goes in the notch completely sheered off. Causing damage the the cam shaft notch. Looks like I need new cams. I’m curious if there’s any other further damage as I heard a snapping noose in the rear while turning the cams. Possible valve spring? Any aftermarket recommendations if needing replacement? If it can happen this time it can happen again if I’m pushing more power…

I have not seen this failure mode before - do you know if this was 100% original inside, or had someone been in there previously? Since you're going to remove the camshafts you'll want to closely inspect your rollers and lifters. If that pin sheared it's feasible there was a violent stoppage on the cam where the pin was the fuse that let go.

Valve spring I'd hope is not the issue as that would indicate piston:valve contact

please also take a photo of the elastomer on your crank pulley if you get a chance