Articulation Ramp / RTI

[KaiserM715]

First trip up the ramp with the sway bar connected netted a 684 for the score (91-inches up the ramp / 133-inch wheelbase X 1000 = 684.21)
Second trip up the ramp with the sway bar disconnected netted a 722 for the score (96-inches up the ramp / 133-inch wheelbase X 1000 = 721.80)

Her FJ scored a 558 on the ramp with the bar connected and 589 with the disconnected bar. Her FJ is mostly stock other than the larger tires 33" and the TRUXX kit. Could not find any pictures of the H2 on the ramp it scored a 562 with a minor mods and 37" tires.

Thanks for going out and doing this. Great information. I am pleased that the Raptor did so well.

 

[GR8PMKN]

Not to get too deep into this sway bar discussion. Didn't this start out as an RTI question.

It is a personal choice to make the mod's to your truck. Just like when a passenger gets in your vehicle he is putting his life into your hands. One of the slogans we coined at my prior job in the automotive after market was "Cut One Up". The idea behind it was make it your's, like a fingerprint. Make a statement for who you are. When it comes to adding after market performance enhancing component, programmers, CAI, suspension, tires, wheels, ect. there is an organization founded to protect the manufactures and the enthusiasts its SEMA. As you all know SEMA is more than just a automotive showcase that takes place every fall in Las Vegas, NV.

Today, the 46-year-old organization performs many services for its members and for the hobby as a whole. Perhaps most importantly, SEMA works hard to protect consumers’ rights to drive accessorized, customized and vintage vehicles. SEMA keeps close tabs on legislators in Washington, D.C., and also in each state within the United States, so SEMA members and anyone who loves cars and trucks can protest pending legislation that might harm our hobby, as well as endorse legislation that’s good for car lovers. SEMA also has helped numerous consumers interact with car dealers, who sometimes try to get away with charging for repairs on a modified vehicle by claiming (wrongly) that specialty accessories have voided its warranty.

Guys I worked in the automotive after market for 15 years at a manufacture. I worked it from the management and legal side as a VP of a company. It was about CYA for the manufacture and the consumer. A manufacture can't exist without the support and patronage of the consumer. Some Insurance Co. and Lawyers will try and get into your pocket book because they think it's there right. We leveraged SEMA to help protect us and our customers. There are many sides to SEMA I would encourage any and everyone to take a look at what all the do for us as consumers and those out there manufacturing after market parts. www.sema.org

I'll get off my Soapbox now...:soapbox:

 

[MarkT]

Snip

In my opinion, removal of the sway is drastic enough to the handling characteristics of the Raptor to warrant the same discussion with my adjuster, and most likely the same inspection and subsequent coverage adjustment.

So it comes down to this for me: Its fine to talk the talk, but are ya willing to walk the walk? Are ya willing to call up your insurance company and tell them you have removed a part of your OEM suspension's stabilization system? Are ya willing to have that conversation?

I'm not. Not for this particular mod and its minimal benefits, anyway. On the other hand those who find this conversation silly should have no problem making that call, right? Their adjuster is going to laugh at them and say "why the hell are you wasting my time", right?

So I say again... It's all about choices

So what about lift kits and all kinds of other mods that affect the handling, braking, or acceleration of the vehicle?

Can anyone quote a case where an insurance company failed to pay a claim because of a mod?

(There's a big difference in what an insurance company rep tells you and what the law says)

The truth is that if insurance companies were allowed to deny public liability claims they would. What about DUI's? That's actually a deliberate illegal act that contributed to the accident. Can the insurance company just not pay because you did something illegal? (and just to be clear, removing a sway bar is NOT illegal)

The insurance business is to NOT pay claims. I could see the insurance company failing to pay to reimburse you for your undisclosed mods but not paying damages to the party you injured? No way. Sure, they might drop you afterwards just like they probably would if you got a DUI... but I seriously doubt they could get away with not paying the party you injured.

Again, any proof of where a claim was not paid to the injured party because the vehicle was modded? Specifically, a sway bar removed or changed? What about spring changes? Changing the spring rate (Deavers?) would affect the handling as much or more as removing the front sway bar. Would you feel the need to call your insurer if you decided to change your springs? (I think part of the problem is the "mystery" surrounding sway bars and what they actually do)

Everybody has the right to an opinion. I have not removed my sway bar and I'm not planning to. But not because I feel the sway bar on the Raptor would significantly alter the handling in a negative or dangerous way.

Here's something: I won't buy the new General tires because I feel the added weight (40lbs per wheel or so) will significantly affect the performance and the stopping power of my vehicle.

I'll debate that all day long. I'll strive to find real world test results regarding tire weight and the effects on stopping power. (or better yet, perform actual tests using the Raptor).

So among the "do not remove your sway bar" crowd, who has done any research to prove the horrors of removal? Anyone? Bueller?

All I've seen is opinion backed up by well-meaning but fear-inducing statements about "what might happen" if you got into an accident...

 

[GR8PMKN]

Thanks for going out and doing this. Great information. I am pleased that the Raptor did so well.

I know these trucks were not purpose built rock crawlers but built for BaJa it's just nice to know where the limits are beyond what is advertised. Thanks Kaiser

 

[MarkT]

SNIP
I don't appreciate being accused of "fear mongering" or "propagating baseless fear."

Dan, I did not mean to come across as personally attacking you.

This reminds me of the "beadlock" debate. Most people think that true beadlocks are illegal for street use because they are not "DOT approved". The fact is that there is nothing in the DOT standards that would make beadlocks illegal. And the DOT does not "approve" anything. The manufacturer simply certifies that they built the part to meet DOT specs. A further fact is that many, many aftermarket wheels and parts do not carry DOT certification from the manufacturer!

The point is, once the ball gets rolling, it's hard to stop. Today it's sway bars. Tomorrow it's springs. The day after it's wheels and tires. Then it's that CAI that gave you the 2HP boost in power. Pretty soon we won't be able to do any mod without fear... and "reality" tends to follow popular opinion.

I'm not perfect by any means... I've done the "fear" thing myself. But I'm starting to recognize the danger of using that type of well-intentioned argument unless it's based on a fact like a law against modifying or changing your vehicle... or a proven safety issue. Neither exist in this case.

My apologies for offending you.

 

[MarkT]

Not to get too deep into this sway bar discussion. Didn't this start out as an RTI question.

It is a personal choice to make the mod's to your truck. Just like when a passenger gets in your vehicle he is putting his life into your hands. One of the slogans we coined at my prior job in the automotive after market was "Cut One Up". The idea behind it was make it your's, like a fingerprint. Make a statement for who you are. When it comes to adding after market performance enhancing component, programmers, CAI, suspension, tires, wheels, ect. there is an organization founded to protect the manufactures and the enthusiasts its SEMA. As you all know SEMA is more than just a automotive showcase that takes place every fall in Las Vegas, NV.

Today, the 46-year-old organization performs many services for its members and for the hobby as a whole. Perhaps most importantly, SEMA works hard to protect consumers’ rights to drive accessorized, customized and vintage vehicles. SEMA keeps close tabs on legislators in Washington, D.C., and also in each state within the United States, so SEMA members and anyone who loves cars and trucks can protest pending legislation that might harm our hobby, as well as endorse legislation that’s good for car lovers. SEMA also has helped numerous consumers interact with car dealers, who sometimes try to get away with charging for repairs on a modified vehicle by claiming (wrongly) that specialty accessories have voided its warranty.

Guys I worked in the automotive after market for 15 years at a manufacture. I worked it from the management and legal side as a VP of a company. It was about CYA for the manufacture and the consumer. A manufacture can't exist without the support and patronage of the consumer. Some Insurance Co. and Lawyers will try and get into your pocket book because they think it's there right. We leveraged SEMA to help protect us and our customers. There are many sides to SEMA I would encourage any and everyone to take a look at what all the do for us as consumers and those out there manufacturing after market parts. www.sema.org

I'll get off my Soapbox now...:soapbox:

:clap: ...

 

[KaiserM715]

I know these trucks were not purpose built rock crawlers but built for BaJa it's just nice to know where the limits are beyond what is advertised. Thanks Kaiser

My take on these trucks has always been that they for more than just high speed and are a jack of all trades vehicle. The RTI results help prove my point

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Thanks Mark.

This is a good discussion that has gone away from the original topic of the Articulation Ramp/RTI and the Raptor's strong performance on the ramp. But I hope we can continue these discussions here because moving the mod issue or restarting it elsewhere may kill the momentum.

Thanks very much to GRPMKN for your time, effort and posts.


I also find it very interesting that the General tires weigh 40 pounds more than the BFGs. That, to me, is shocking and almost hard to believe that a tire of same/similar size can be THAT much heavier. I'm disappointed as I certainly won't add 40 pounds unsprung weight to each wheel. It's hard to imagine the tire could offer any performance improvement that could ever compensate for that much more weight.

Edit: Based on the info I found the weight difference is more like 13 lbs. - not insignificant but not 40 lbs.
Link here: http://www.svtoffroad.com/showthread.php?1189-New-General-Grabber&p=25499#post25499

 

[The Tank]

I also find it very interesting that the General tires weigh 40 pounds more than the BFGs. That, to me, is shocking and almost hard to believe that a tire of same/similar size can be THAT much heavier. I'm disappointed as I certainly won't add 40 pounds unsprung weight to each wheel. It's hard to imagine the tire could offer any performance improvement that could ever compensate for that much more weight.

Is that the compared to the Raptor spec BFG or the regular BFG?

 

[BigJ]

Mark I wanted to respond to you but not here (sorry for the derail guys). We had a thread going with all this anyway, so I just quoted you and added my comments there: http://www.svtoffroad.com/showthread.php?1040-Swaybar-Disconnects&p=25510#post25510