what is the best nanny setup for driving on snow covered streets

[Bad company]

Yes, I am a better driver than modern ABS and traction control. BUT, I am trained for it. Having the T/C and ABS in full effect has thrown me into a boulder because the computer didn't like the 4 wheel drift sideways I doing (desert, smashed A Arm and cracked frame. Driver error because I did not take into consideration that all the damned nannies were turned on).

IMO for the average person, leave your shit on, turn 4wd on and drive slow. There is a time and place to go nuts. The street isn't one of them.

Older, crappy ABS systems were often based on fewer sensors than four, and engaged prematurely, resulting in far greator stopping distances than threshold breaking would. This gave ABS a bad name amongst those who were able to get better performance without it. My '92 Sunbird was a prime example of crappy ABS.

Modern ABS does not have that problem, and stability control can steer your vehicle using individual braking LONG AFTER more steering lock is useless (effectively skid steering). Which means that after you've become a passenger, stability control can rescue your sorry behind.

You hit a rock because your vehicle did not act as you anticipated, my guess is you were looking to increase your turn radius by applying throttle, and the truck didn't allow you to. You probably needed more opposite lock? Good that you are not using this practice on heavily trafficed streets, your insurance carrier would have a nervious tic, your local law enforcement would be belligerant and the local tire shop owner would be driving a Lambo.

Problem is, a lot of people think they are better drivers than "the nannies". In a very popular M3 forum, almost every crash story has "I turned DSC off". If you understand the traction circle, slip angle, the difference between kinetic and static friction, how weight transfer affects traction, what induces lift throttle oversteer, and how surface conditions and temperature affect grip, maybe you are.

So assuming you have four brake pedals (one for each tire), and you drive with 100% attention on driving, and have the SCCA cert to back it up, and FAR better throttle control than the Raptor currently has, you might be as safe and effective with the nannies off as on.

As it is, we are fiddling with our Sync, oggling the woman in the 'vert next to us, and yelling at the kid behind us to put cherios in the loud part of the face, and NOT in the heat vent (regardless of how funny he thinks that is).

One day you will crest a bridge, and see an idiot in a Camaro parked in your lane facing you. Instinctively you will slam on the brakes, and one of two things will happen:

1. You are on black ice, ABS will kick in, and you won't slow down too much, but you will still have steering, and be able to gently steer around said idiot.

2. You are on black ice, no ABS, you will end up sideways and hit the Camaro, at the least ruining the pretty graphics on the side of your truck.

Number one actually happened to me, in a $hitty '92 Sunbird even. ABS saved my sorry a$$.

Driving is unpredictable. You will be distracted, tired, crabby, preoccupied, etc while you drive. Leave the nannies on, some day you might be very grateful for them.

Off for Hoonin', on for driving.

 

[Droid]

So play with it - what I have found is that I never really trust the electronics, as they can sometimes work in your favor and sometimes not.

Yeah, *really* need to do that, of course in socal it rains so rarely and the place is generally so busy that you have to make a good effort to find an unpopulated/safe playground on the right day.

As you can see, we in socal have to deal with some real winter challenges too!

 

[Droid]

Actually just thought of one more (dumb) question...if you're in 4wd, nannies on, and abruptly stomp the throttle on a pretty slick surface (such that most wheels are spinning at 30mph and the truck is moving 10mph), and then hit the brakes to stop quickly, does the truck's ABS figure out that the *real* vehicle velocity is 10mph and engage appropriately?

My 99 Z71 (ABS only) had a rough time in this situation. It figured the vehicle speed at 30mph and of course any brake application resulted in a wheel slowing so much that it treated the semi-tractable snow like it was black ice. It took 30 extra feet to stop from 10mph.

When I tried this (1999 or 2000), I remember thinking if only you had accurate accelerometer data such that you could know the actual velocity vector of the truck you could prevent such situations. Just curious if they've been able to solve such scenarios.

Then again, perhaps the traction control won't let you get there to begin with.

 

[Humvee21]

Actually just thought of one more (dumb) question...if you're in 4wd, nannies on, and abruptly stomp the throttle on a pretty slick surface (such that most wheels are spinning at 30mph and the truck is moving 10mph), and then hit the brakes to stop quickly, does the truck's ABS figure out that the *real* vehicle velocity is 10mph and engage appropriately?

My 99 Z71 (ABS only) had a rough time in this situation. It figured the vehicle speed at 30mph and of course any brake application resulted in a wheel slowing so much that it treated the semi-tractable snow like it was black ice. It took 30 extra feet to stop from 10mph.

When I tried this (1999 or 2000), I remember thinking if only you had accurate accelerometer data such that you could know the actual velocity vector of the truck you could prevent such situations. Just curious if they've been able to solve such scenarios.

Then again, perhaps the traction control won't let you get there to begin with.

If Ford's traction control is as good as Lambo's...

Informative stuff begins at 2:15
Fifth Gear - Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 on Ice by Tiff Needell - YouTube

 

[JP7]

Actually just thought of one more (dumb) question...if you're in 4wd, nannies on, and abruptly stomp the throttle on a pretty slick surface (such that most wheels are spinning at 30mph and the truck is moving 10mph), and then hit the brakes to stop quickly, does the truck's ABS figure out that the *real* vehicle velocity is 10mph and engage appropriately?

Droid, I'll try a description, but its Friday and I'm about out of clever words for the week. Maybe I can find a place to play and take a vid or two tomorrow.

In 4wd if I stomp on it in the snow, it will start to spin, then one wheel at a time will be given the ABS treatment. I move forward in a straight direction, but slowly. If I keep the pedal mashed, there's a power drain from the engine to over-ride my generous right foot. (It's funny when you have the locker engaged to see the ABS try and shut back wheels down...)

Now if I go slow and am moderate with the gas, the ABS will cut power infrequently and it lessens as you gain momentum (have a look at the Tugboat video I posted in the Offroading section - at 0:27 you can see the wheelspin, and I was accellerating smoothly up the driveway)(Same can't be said for the diesel I was towing like a yoyo, but meh)

I have played a lot with it, and aside from the RSC part (which you probably don't want to experience as it is usually accompanied by a "OH SHIT!!!" from the operator) I am getting used to what speeds it will cut out things, and under what steering/slide conditions it will try and straighten things out. The more hours I have in her with slick conditions, the more comfortable I am feeling for how she'll react.

I'm gonna be ****** if I ever get another 78 Bronco though - going to be like learning to drive all over again...

 

[whtrapta]

Who needs brakes. When in doubt, power out.

 

[SPRSNK]

Older, crappy ABS systems were often based on fewer sensors than four, and engaged prematurely, resulting in far greator stopping distances than threshold breaking would. This gave ABS a bad name amongst those who were able to get better performance without it. My '92 Sunbird was a prime example of crappy ABS.

Modern ABS does not have that problem, and stability control can steer your vehicle using individual braking LONG AFTER more steering lock is useless (effectively skid steering). Which means that after you've become a passenger, stability control can rescue your sorry behind.

You hit a rock because your vehicle did not act as you anticipated, my guess is you were looking to increase your turn radius by applying throttle, and the truck didn't allow you to. You probably needed more opposite lock? Good that you are not using this practice on heavily trafficed streets, your insurance carrier would have a nervious tic, your local law enforcement would be belligerant and the local tire shop owner would be driving a Lambo.

Problem is, a lot of people think they are better drivers than "the nannies". In a very popular M3 forum, almost every crash story has "I turned DSC off". If you understand the traction circle, slip angle, the difference between kinetic and static friction, how weight transfer affects traction, what induces lift throttle oversteer, and how surface conditions and temperature affect grip, maybe you are.

So assuming you have four brake pedals (one for each tire), and you drive with 100% attention on driving, and have the SCCA cert to back it up, and FAR better throttle control than the Raptor currently has, you might be as safe and effective with the nannies off as on.

As it is, we are fiddling with our Sync, oggling the woman in the 'vert next to us, and yelling at the kid behind us to put cherios in the loud part of the face, and NOT in the heat vent (regardless of how funny he thinks that is).

One day you will crest a bridge, and see an idiot in a Camaro parked in your lane facing you. Instinctively you will slam on the brakes, and one of two things will happen:

1. You are on black ice, ABS will kick in, and you won't slow down too much, but you will still have steering, and be able to gently steer around said idiot.

2. You are on black ice, no ABS, you will end up sideways and hit the Camaro, at the least ruining the pretty graphics on the side of your truck.

Number one actually happened to me, in a $hitty '92 Sunbird even. ABS saved my sorry a$$.

Driving is unpredictable. You will be distracted, tired, crabby, preoccupied, etc while you drive. Leave the nannies on, some day you might be very grateful for them.

Off for Hoonin', on for driving.

I hereby dub thee "Preacher Boy".

ON FRF we drive our trucks, we break our trucks, we fix our trucks. We don't blame Ford, threaten class action lawsuits nor do we turn stupid (and fun!) offroad antics into our insurance companies because we can not accept the responsibility of our own actions/antics. If one of the members here did do that I would be one of the first to point, laugh and call them a *******.

Who needs brakes. When in doubt, power out.

Don't brake until you see god.

 

[JP7]

I hereby dub thee "Preacher Boy".

ON FRF we drive our trucks, we break our trucks, we fix our trucks. We don't blame Ford, threaten class action lawsuits nor do we turn stupid (and fun!) offroad antics into our insurance companies because we can not accept the responsibility of our own actions/antics. If one of the members here did do that I would be one of the first to point, laugh and call them a *******.



Don't brake until you see god.

100% true on all accounts. Not everyone has racing or wheeling experience, but here is a place you can find helpful information on what to do, or for those without a six figure salary - what not to do!

 

[Hockster]

I hereby dub thee "Preacher Boy".

ON FRF we drive our trucks, we break our trucks, we fix our trucks. We don't blame Ford, threaten class action lawsuits nor do we turn stupid (and fun!) offroad antics into our insurance companies because we can not accept the responsibility of our own actions/antics. If one of the members here did do that I would be one of the first to point, laugh and call them a *******.



Don't brake until you see god.

On the first... so true...!!!
On the second... There is no god so there will never be a need to brake

 

[Squatting Dog]

Brakes are over rated!