Stage 4 CRP Turbos Revisted (ZFGRACING)

[Muchmore]

Whoa!!! Dang.....

 

[Stroked out]

Sorry to hear guy, best of luck

 

[Zeusmotorworks]

Hmmmm. Leaves questions about tune/fuel.

 

[zfgracing]

Hmmmm. Leaves questions about tune/fuel.

It spun a bearing.

I don't believe it to be tune or power related. At least not in the sense of it was too much. I have other customers running 100-200 more hp on e85 through the stock short block.

It's definitely hard to say what the root cause is especially because I wasn't the only tuner work on the truck so I don't know the full history of all the power that it did or didn't make.

There are definitely a couple things that could be at play one of them is oil pressure in general I believe we touched on that in this thread already but if the oil isn't exactly at the full level or slightly above you end up with oil pressure drops on any hard launch. Many 3.5ls have fallen victim to that. There is also a bunch of 3.5ls out there have your tore up bearings on stock tunes with no mods and under 2k miles on them.

This is a good time to point out that as you guys turn these things up, there is always an increased risk of stuff like this happening. If you don't want to take that kind of risk you are better off staying stock and keeping up with maintenance.

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[TwizzleStix]

....It’s not a configuration error. She just blew.

Yeah, but no. There is ALWAYS a root cause of engine problems. A bearing doesn’t fail unless there is an oiling problem, simple as that. If it was simply too much power/torque, then hard parts break. In most cases of too much combustion pressure, the (Ford oem forged)rod will bend and/or the piston pin/head area will crack, etc. When forged rods are overloaded enough to bend, it will allow the pistol skirt/pin area to contact the crank balance weight/cheek. If it collapses hard the piston breaks apart and their is major carnage, usually with ventilated block.
Are you sure it is a rod bearing or could it be a bent rod? When a forged rod fails “gently@ it lets the piston just touch the crank and sound pretty much like heavy rod knock. Cast rods just shatter into many pieces rather than bend.
I recommend to delay calling the actual failure mode until the engine is torn down. Then you can tell the root cause.

 

[Azrael]

Thanks Guy for the feedback. Your efforts helped get an idea around what this engine can and cannot do. Good luck with the new project.

 

[zfgracing]

Yeah, but no. There is ALWAYS a root cause of engine problems. A bearing doesn’t fail unless there is an oiling problem, simple as that. If it was simply too much power/torque, then hard parts break. In most cases of too much combustion pressure, the (Ford oem forged)rod will bend and/or the piston pin/head area will crack, etc. When forged rods are overloaded enough to bend, it will allow the pistol skirt/pin area to contact the crank balance weight/cheek. If it collapses hard the piston breaks apart and their is major carnage, usually with ventilated block.
Are you sure it is a rod bearing or could it be a bent rod? When a forged rod fails “gently@ it lets the piston just touch the crank and sound pretty much like heavy rod knock. Cast rods just shatter into many pieces rather than bend.
I recommend to delay calling the actual failure mode until the engine is torn down. Then you can tell the root cause.

Pretty much hit it on the head. There are some tuning things that can kill bearings like going past mbt timing (which you really can't do on pump gas). But typically you're only going to see a bearing fail before a connecting rod on a built motor because the rods are strong enough to take it on a stock motor it's definitely going to kick the rod out first.

Typically when these get over powered we see stuff in this order likelihood.

Head gasket, lifting the heads
Pin bore failure (leading to rapid disassembly of a lot of things)
Ringland failure
Rod failure




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[Zeusmotorworks]

Guy mostly answered my question if he was logging at the time and the logs were “clean”.

Everything is of course speculative pending a full physical inspection. With tuning info, it will now be interesting to see if it is traced back to insufficient oil pressure. An even more interesting question might be to ask if a good baffled/aftermarket pan could have prevented the issue in his case/use. If the engine is being starved of oil, it would eventually fail regardless of having a built bottom end or not. I believe someone if not in this thread had mentioned oil starvation being a potential if not proven problem with this type of use.

 

[TwizzleStix]

... I believe someone if not in this thread had mentioned oil starvation being a potential if not proven problem with this type of use.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I'm sure there were some posts on it. The Raptor 3.5 also has a two-stage oil pump that runs at ~20psi on light load and steps up to ~60psi when the load rises. I've watched it work a few times, but I haven't seen anything in the Cobb software that "accesses" the control scheme. The oil pickup is at the rear of the pan, so it would seem likely that a cavitation event wouldn't likely take place during straight acceleration. However, with relatively quick accel/decal transitions while maybe loading/unloading the throttle it may(just speculation).

 

[zfgracing]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I'm sure there were some posts on it. The Raptor 3.5 also has a two-stage oil pump that runs at ~20psi on light load and steps up to ~60psi when the load rises. I've watched it work a few times, but I haven't seen anything in the Cobb software that "accesses" the control scheme. The oil pickup is at the rear of the pan, so it would seem likely that a cavitation event wouldn't likely take place during straight acceleration. However, with relatively quick accel/decal transitions while maybe loading/unloading the throttle it may(just speculation).

The oil pickup is the the front of the sump. Hp tuners also has access to the control. The problem is if you lock it in high flow the turbos start to smoke (pushing oil through the seals).

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