Not funneling traffic elsewhere, but since RPG opened up the RPG vs Camburg discussion, I posted some info addressing what they had to say in this thread in the thread SDHQ has regarding our lower arms rather than posting in here. I respect this is their area.
http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f40/camburg-raptor-lower-arms-13807/index5.html
I'll keep my posts in the other thread as not to take away from anything they have going on in here, unless I'm addressed by them ...
- Scott @ Camburg
Scott I appreciate the professional and very informed response, which is all any paying vendor on this site can ask for. What I find Interesting about the recap of events is we were simply minding our business on Saturday morning when I happen to notice the “we hold no punches approach” to answering a forum members question about the difference between Camburgs LCA’s and RPG’s. Instead of answering the question in a more professional and diplomatic way such as you just have, (which I appreciate by the way) I personally feel we were needlessly attacked with nothing more than question marks put at the end of each statement.
First let me start by going over the $5 grade 8 bolt vs. $80.00 NAS mil-spec MS 21250 12 point bolt topic. I must say, I was a bit confused by this. Full disclosure to everyone, I haven’t really followed the development of your arms until now so I was under the impression this whole time you were referring to the chassis side pivot bolts in which case I was impressed that you guys paid $80.00 for a set of bolts to attach the arm to the chassis. Now that I have my weekday head about me again, I realized that you are referring to the bolt that attaches the arm to the knuckle. I apologize for my brain fart on this one, but let’s now look at it this on equal levels to get real comparison. You mentioned that you guys run a 5/8th NAS mil-spec MS 21250 12point which is $80.00. This particular bolt has a 180psi and is totally appropriate for this application. The RPG lower arm runs a $75.00 custom machined center pin tapered to match the factory knuckle which actually has a higher 240psi rating when comparing it to the Camburg provided NAS mil-spec MS 21250, we should also mention our center pin displays better fracture toughness properties than the Camburg provided NAS mil-spec MS 21250 which ultimately make for an even stronger attachment. I would be more than willing to send both bolts to an independent lab to confirm these findings. Just like Camburg we also run 12 point nuts that retail for about $12.00 apiece.
Hopefully we are all on the same page now because the larger grade 8 bolt I was referring to was our inner chassis side bolts. During testing we have seen the stock LCA bolts back the nut off during hard driving, plus we managed to bend two of them simply running the stock LCA’s during Fox 3.0” testing. This is why upgrade the lower chassis bolts for our customers when purchasing these arms. When you purchase the RPG LCA you don’t reuse the stock bolts, but get a much better, larger and stronger Grade 8 bolt with nylon nut free of charge
Now on to welding:
For those who aren’t familiar with Race-Dezert, the debate about continuous welding vs. trigger welding has been going on for years, and honestly, it will probably never end. As sure as Camburg is about the continuous welding approach, we are equally as adamant about our continuous /trigger welding process to insure proper heat penetration for either respective companies upper and lower control arms. Here is my take on the whole welding debate.
One variable that needs to be considered in a weld is crack propagation and which technique is more susceptible to longer cracks. I will leave this up to you all to research for yourself but I think you may find the results interesting in relation to this topic. I can also fully understand why Camburg would demand their welders use continuous welds vs. trigger. It is much faster for production work, and output typically goes up. We on the other hand aren’t on the sales level of a Camburg which may or may not possibly allow us to spend more time on a smaller quantity of parts in comparison to them. Either way, both companies build high quality well manufactured components.
I do tend to find myself in agreement with Scott on the continuous approach if all parameters are equal, I.E. heat, wire-speed, material thickness etc., a continuous weld will most likely produce a better heat signature and penetrate the metal better thus ultimately leading to a better built and safer part. However, we don’t live in a black and white world and not all welding is set on Autoset. One of the misconceptions of this whole debate thus far is that somehow 3/16ths plate as our arms are made from is somehow considered thick and cumbersome for a welder such as our (Miller 252) which is more than capable of welding 1/2inch plate all day. Keep in mind this isn’t a Harbor Freight 110V, but a professional grade welder that melts 3/16th like butter when setup properly and placed in the hand of an experienced user.
For example, if we were to use the example of welding 1/2inch plate then we are in total agreement with Scott’s assessment that only a continuous pass would be the preferred approach for this specific application because of the material thickness. But we’re not talking 1/2inch plate, but rather a relatively thin 3/16’s which essentially doesn’t even give a welder such as a Miller 252 a workout. Inside the Miller 252 the welding guidelines are listed for the user to use. It says right there inside the cabinet the preferred settings should be 190V and 290 wire speed for .030. So the question at hand is would a trigger weld set at the same power output and wire speed of 190-290 produce equal results? Again, I would agree with Scott from Camburg, NO. More than likely it would be more than sufficient for the long haul, but why risk it when people’s safety is at stake? Fortunately for the person using the machine, the dials adjust and the heat and wire speed can be turned up and down to compensate for different techniques. When you turn the heat up, and slow the wire speed down, you can generate the exact same amount of penetration and build a part that is absolutely as structurally sound. The RPG arms have been tested on for over a year now, and believe me when I tell you unequivocally they weren’t because of any other arm on the market, but rather to make sure we bring Raptor owners a part that is bullet proof, functional, high performance and built to last. A simple forum search will show how long this arm has been in development.
I personally think the Camburg arm is a really good looking part, and have never once said anything otherwise. I don’t personally agree with their entire design based on the knowledge from our own testing, but overall it looks like a decently built component that should probably hold up well just like everything else they build.
From the onset we knew we were going to build an arm with the ability to house a dual 3.0” setup for the ultimate in front end Raptor control, and all of this at a price that won’t kill you just because you drive a Raptor. I can see how this may have caught some other companies off guard when we offered what I view as a better built control arm for $1595 plus including the upper shock mount.
When everyone else was focusing on increasing travel as their halo product, we never lost sight of what we always really wanted to achieve, and that was to focus on driving dynamics and ultimate control all the while retaining the true essence of a Raptor.
For over two years now our Upper Control Arms have been built with 1.0” spherical bearings as the race-line option, and the lower was always designed to have a very large 1.5” spherical bearing on the chassis side for greater strength. We did consider building one with an inner bushing at a lower price point for those on a tighter budget, but ultimately opted against it a long time ago due to slow pre-run arm sales.
Moving on to Steering stops:
With regards to the steering system my personal truck in testing suffered outboard CV damage that we absolutely attributed to not having the steering stops built into our initial set of lower arms. Keep in mind the main function of the steering stop is to make sure you limit the extreme angles on the outboard CV when the wheel is turned at full lock and under extreme bump and droop travel. Steering stop location is key in reducing and preventing compounding CV angle. This isn’t my opinion, but fact, hence why the factory incorporates it into the lower arm. As you all know when ripping across the dirt in the middle of nowhere, the last thing you feel like suffering is major CV issues especially if your in sand or conditions like we found in the deep snow on the Snoball. Either way, we will always take our time and produce a part that is close to factory specs as we can.
One last topic I would like to hit on is the amount of weld surface on our 1.5” inner chassis bearing cups which attach the arm to the uniball cups. Keep in mind this bearing cup is not only welded on the outside of the bearing cup, but also along 3 of the 4 control arm walls on the inside of the control arm to the cup as well. This translates to more welding surface than any other production LCA available because once you weld the 3 walls, you need to put the top of the control arm on so it’s impossible to get to the inner 4th wall. Regardless, this amounts to nearly 16” of pure weldment material and basically makes a wrap irrelevant. But as I stated on Saturday, if you all still want it wrapped, consider it done.
We’ve had the pleasure of talking to, meeting, p.ming or emailing hundreds of you over the past few years. I’ve also had the pleasure of witnessing the beating some of you have put our parts through and it typically produces a massive smile on my face followed by a wince and prayer that you don’t drive into a tree and kill yourself. RPG parts have been on trucks that have won insanely high jump contests in New York, 1000 mile desert pounding with other forum members, brutal accidents without one weld ever even cracking and testing well beyond the limits of what any Raptor should ever be put through and have never been shy about sharing it with all of you. For anyone at this point to question the structural integrity of our parts simply doesn’t understand all of you and how many of you use you’re trucks. We have tried our best to make sure we continue to push the envelope and advance the Raptor. We strongly considered turning our wrecked truck into a Class 8 truck but ultimately knew that would result in us having to run higher prices, and that is something we just weren’t willing to do. I really do thank you all for reading through this mess. As I have said many times, there are some really great vendors on this forum. It doesn’t mean we always see eye to eye, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to earing your support and building the community stronger. I would like to thank Scott for a very professional and insightful response, it was good reading and I wish Camburg continued success moving forward.
RPG
LCA
someone not so cool
