How many more yrs do we have of the Ford Raptor?

[Donovan]

Don't you dare judge!! This place is therapy for a lot of us, including you!

No judgy no judgy. Hands up don't shewt.

 

[melvimbe]

I'm not up on the latest in Cali atm, but you used to be able to get paid from the utilities for feeding back into the grid with your solar panels when you didn't store all the energy in your batteries. I did some research last year on the electrical grid of Cali for another thread on here, but can't remember exactly, but I think the rebates, etc, were ending. Not surprised.

That's the same way it is in TX too, regarding feedback into the grid. Haven't heard that it's ending though, and I have no idea about rebates. I haven't looked into it. I've had quite a few door to door sales folks try to sell me on the idea, which really makes me want to never ever own solar panels.

 

[DFS]

This thread has been very enlightening. Definitely reinforces just how far some are from the reality of battery technology and what is coming in the immediate future. Besides the physics side of the problem, material science is a major limiter as well, with those two being synergistic in the success of battery tech moving forward. My more pressing concern for battery's is the disposal of them and their waste rather than the immediate development of the battery potential itself. But wherever the money flows is where we will innovate first, and for now that is packing more power into smaller packages. With the plethora of EV's being pushed by every car maker now, we will have major issues with disposing of all these batteries in the next 5-10 years I predict. Not to mention the power all comes from somewhere, and "renewable green" power isn't going to handle the influx of demand for electricity magically, even with demand for ICE vehicles and fossil fuels being somewhat lower.

 

[melvimbe]

Hello! Sure, happy to. Other than environmental reasons, is the cost to operate it long-term. The price of gas/oil is only going to continue rise as we move into the future. Everyone is (understandably) freaking out right now about gas prices, but politics aside, the general trend will be rising gas prices greater than inflation indefinitely into the future, although hopefully not at the rate we've experienced in the last year or so.

I don't think that's true.

Gasoline Prices Adjusted for Inflation | US Inflation Calculator

Gasoline prices are often very volatile with sharp swings in what American pay at the pump. The average price of gasoline dropped nearly 17% in 2020.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

Besides, EV batteries lose the amount of charge they hold and will eventually need to be replaced. I would factor that into the energy cost of running a vehicle.

This means that the relative cost of operating our ICE vehicles will continue to increase compared to all the other of life's costs as well as our incomes. Each year it will become incrementally more expensive, year after year after year. Given that oil is a finite resource and it's detrimental effects on the environment there's not really any reason to honestly expect anything different, in the long view.

Except that battery materials are also a finite resource too, and mining these materials is also detrimental to the environment. That will only increase as we push for more and more EVs. The costs of producing batteries may go down for a period of time, but they will go up as environmentalist wake up and demand changes to mining methods and resources start to get scarce. Probably not a concern in the short term for an individual buyer, but certainly something for the industry as a whole.

I also want to reduce my carbon footprint so that there is an inhabitable world for our children and grandchildren to inherit so, in my view, it's generally a good thing that the market puts upward pressure on ICE vehicles & fuel while downward pressure is put on EV and electricity supplies. The faster this can happen, the better all of the people of the world will be, so I'm very much okay with it.

The problem with this train of thought, assuming climate change making the world uninhabitable for a moment, is that it's being paired with the idea that the US should slow and stop producing petroleum products, even though we have the capability to produce it cleaning then anyone else. Instead, Russia, Middle East, South America, will continue to produce 'dirty' energy, taking advantage of us getting out of the market instead of following our lead as people want to believe. Then there is China, which is happy to create more coal plants while selling solar panels to Americans.

If this switch from ICE to EV were happening naturally, that would be one thing, but it is not. It's happening with Government subsides and rebates with loads of propaganda.

I'd like to do my small part to contribute to a cleaner future and faster technological advancement in EV technology, so by buying an EV truck I would be doing a little bit to contribute to the overall growth of EV vehicles and the advancement of the technology. The more EV drivers there are, the more support/recharge places there will be so it creates a virtuous cycle where more customers cause more charging stations to open, and with more charging stations even more people will buy the vehicles, and so on.

And then, when people realize that EVs are not the prefect solution they were told it would be, we'll move on to the next thing.

I spend a good portion of 9 months of the year at our wilderness place in far northern Minnesota so a truck is an absolute must-have for me. I put on almost 500 miles/week driving there and back (usually weekly for about 9 months of the year) so fuel cost and environmental impact for me is rather significant.

Last fall, I was ready to buy a new truck and really would have preferred to go for the F150 lightning if it has been on the market and available, but it wasn't out yet and even if it were, we all know the troubles in the auto industry re chips and vehicle deliveries, so it just wasn't in the cards. However I needed a new truck then so I picked up a sweet Gen 2 Raptor with less than 20k miles and my goal is for it to be my truck for 3-5 years until such time as (hopefully) the F150 lightning is readily available, preferably as a Raptor.

Why didn't you go for a powerboost? That would have been a much better choice for your gas price and environmental crusade if you were looking for a stop gap to getting a Lightning.

Anyway, we all need to do what's right for each of us and I readily admit that what is good for me might not be a good fit for you, so no judgements at all towards anyone who feels differently. Hopefully we can disagree respectfully and recognize each of us is in a different place with different needs, and that's okay. But, for me, and for my needs and situation, an EV Raptor would be just phenomenal and something for which I am very excited about. And then there's the torque that comes with an EV motor. If you've never driven an EV, try one out sometime just for fun. It literally feels like you have your own private roller coaster as the takeoff is just stunning (and exhilarating).

Difference of opinion, respectfully, is a good thing. It's all the propaganda and hatred that others (not you ) are throwing around that ends up being a big turn off. I would rather see a hybrid Raptor than an EV...certainly not until they can greatly increase the range at a minimum.

 

[GordoJay]

... Not to mention the power all comes from somewhere, and "renewable green" power isn't going to handle the influx of demand for electricity magically, even with demand for ICE vehicles and fossil fuels being somewhat lower.

This. The price of everything(excluding fads, luxuries, collectibles) is a linear function of the embedded energy cost. A countries standard of living is a linear function of it's per capita energy use. Over the short term there will be price differences in the cost of different energy sources in different regions. In the long run, that all averages out. At the end of the day, a BTU is a BTU. When you spend more for an EV than you would for the equivalent ICE-powered vehicle, you're paying for the energy needed to make it. It costs less per mile to run because it's more efficient to generate the electricity in one big facility than in millions of separate places. And taxes on fuel. Tax rebates and incentives offset your cost, but the cost is the cost and all that does is transfer money from someone else's pocket to yours. If you want to minimize your footprint, reduce the number of BTUs you consume.

 

[melvimbe]

My more pressing concern for battery's is the disposal of them and their waste rather than the immediate development of the battery potential itself.

In my neighborhood, Monday trash pickup will take just about anything. I don't know what they do with it, but it's gone, so I'm good.

 

[WTX]

Hello! Sure, happy to. Other than environmental reasons, is the cost to operate it long-term. The price of gas/oil is only going to continue rise as we move into the future. Everyone is (understandably) freaking out right now about gas prices, but politics aside, the general trend will be rising gas prices greater than inflation indefinitely into the future, although hopefully not at the rate we've experienced in the last year or so. This means that the relative cost of operating our ICE vehicles will continue to increase compared to all the other of life's costs as well as our incomes. Each year it will become incrementally more expensive, year after year after year. Given that oil is a finite resource and it's detrimental effects on the environment there's not really any reason to honestly expect anything different, in the long view.

I also want to reduce my carbon footprint so that there is an inhabitable world for our children and grandchildren to inherit so, in my view, it's generally a good thing that the market puts upward pressure on ICE vehicles & fuel while downward pressure is put on EV and electricity supplies. The faster this can happen, the better all of the people of the world will be, so I'm very much okay with it.

I'd like to do my small part to contribute to a cleaner future and faster technological advancement in EV technology, so by buying an EV truck I would be doing a little bit to contribute to the overall growth of EV vehicles and the advancement of the technology. The more EV drivers there are, the more support/recharge places there will be so it creates a virtuous cycle where more customers cause more charging stations to open, and with more charging stations even more people will buy the vehicles, and so on.

I spend a good portion of 9 months of the year at our wilderness place in far northern Minnesota so a truck is an absolute must-have for me. I put on almost 500 miles/week driving there and back (usually weekly for about 9 months of the year) so fuel cost and environmental impact for me is rather significant.

Last fall, I was ready to buy a new truck and really would have preferred to go for the F150 lightning if it has been on the market and available, but it wasn't out yet and even if it were, we all know the troubles in the auto industry re chips and vehicle deliveries, so it just wasn't in the cards. However I needed a new truck then so I picked up a sweet Gen 2 Raptor with less than 20k miles and my goal is for it to be my truck for 3-5 years until such time as (hopefully) the F150 lightning is readily available, preferably as a Raptor.

Anyway, we all need to do what's right for each of us and I readily admit that what is good for me might not be a good fit for you, so no judgements at all towards anyone who feels differently. Hopefully we can disagree respectfully and recognize each of us is in a different place with different needs, and that's okay. But, for me, and for my needs and situation, an EV Raptor would be just phenomenal and something for which I am very excited about. And then there's the torque that comes with an EV motor. If you've never driven an EV, try one out sometime just for fun. It literally feels like you have your own private roller coaster as the takeoff is just stunning (and exhilarating).

Read the book “Cool It.” There are greater travesties in this world than “climate change.”

I respect your thoughts, I see things a bit different.

 

[GordoJay]

The problem with this train of thought, assuming climate change making the world uninhabitable for a moment, is that it's being paired with the idea that the US should slow and stop producing petroleum products, even though we have the capability to produce it cleaning then anyone else. Instead, Russia, Middle East, South America, will continue to produce 'dirty' energy, taking advantage of us getting out of the market instead of following our lead as people want to believe. Then there is China, which is happy to create more coal plants while selling solar panels to Americans.

We are SELLING OUR COAL to China! We have clean coal plants, at least in Colorado. But to "save the planet" we're shutting them down and letting China burn our coal in crappy, dirty plants. Then we get to breath the same air and eat the same mercury-tainted seafood. It's almost like we live on the same planet. If there ever was an issue that has corruption woven through it, it's the green revolution.

 

[DFS]

In my neighborhood, Monday trash pickup will take just about anything. I don't know what they do with it, but it's gone, so I'm good.

Out of sight, out of mind!

 

[melvimbe]

This. The price of everything(excluding fads, luxuries, collectibles) is a linear function of the embedded energy cost. A countries standard of living is a linear function of it's per capita energy use. Over the short term there will be price differences in the cost of different energy sources in different regions. In the long run, that all averages out. At the end of the day, a BTU is a BTU. When you spend more for an EV than you would for the equivalent ICE-powered vehicle, you're paying for the energy needed to make it. It costs less per mile to run because it's more efficient to generate the electricity in one big facility than in millions of separate places.

In a way yes. But central generation also means significant energy losses in transmission. And when you spin up a turbine at a plant, you're generating the energy whether you use it all or not.

I think you could make an argument that how you generate energy is not as important as minimizing wasted energy. In that regard, hybrids are great since it captures energy from braking and some of what isn't used in moving the vehicle. If we could find a way to convert the engine heat to useful energy, that would be very useful.

I'm kind of saying what the Indians (native americans if you prefer) said. It's ok to kill the buffalo, but use every part of the buffalo when you do.

And taxes on fuel. Tax rebates and incentives offset your cost, but the cost is the cost and all that does is transfer money from someone else's pocket to yours.

Yes, but artificial costs/benefits are great at reducing the initial startup costs of an emerging tech...which may never happen without that. Everything gets cheaper once we figure out how to do it better (and have the financial incentive to do so). But I would agree that new tech should rarely be pushed by artificial means. That money is abused and wasted more often than put to good use.

If you want to minimize your footprint, reduce the number of BTUs you consume.

...and use those BTUs for more useful work.