Gen 2 to Gen 1.

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It is factually a better motor. Better efficiency and power/torque, while being as reliable. The V8s have had issues - less than 1% of all Raptor owners have developed an issue with their TTV6.

I wouldn't say the TTV6 is factually better if you're factoring in reliability. And I don't think it's an unreliable motor...but the 6.2L appears to be one of those engines that is noteworthy for its reliability. No big surprise, it's an entirely evolutionary design, fundamentally simpler, far fewer parts, and has about half the power/displacement of the HO EB 3.5L.

So far I really like my EB...miss the 6.2L sound but don't miss the gas mileage.
 
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It is factually a better motor. Better efficiency and power/torque, while being as reliable. The V8s have had issues - less than 1% of all Raptor owners have developed an issue with their TTV6.

So where did you get the less than 1% number from? If anybody says the number is greater than 1% everybody wants to rip that person and ask where is the evidence to back such a claim. So where is your evidence to back your claim?

Given that the cam phaser issues have persisted across the 17-19 model years of the Gen 2, the number ought to be higher than 1%. Some dealerships have told Gen 2 owners that they have worked on multiple Gen 2 Raptors at their dealership to fix the issue. But again, nobody has data on the problem. I am not saying the number of Raptors having problems are a majority of the trucks out there. But to say it is less than 1% when you don't have any evidence yourself is disingenuous to say the least.

As you noted, every make and model vehicle will have problems. But to state the Gen 1 V8s have had issues, then to follow that statement by saying the Gen 2 issues have been less than 1%—insinuating that the Gen 2 problems are less than the Gen 1 (again without factual evidence) is straight garbage because the Gen 1 never had an engine issue that spanned for 3 years.

If you like the Gen 2 better than the Gen 1, then that's fine. But don't use faulty logic to TRY and construct an argument.

Disclaimer: I am in the process of purchasing a 2020, which would make for my 4th Raptor purchased. So don't give me no troll hogwash.
 

rtmozingo

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So where did you get the less than 1% number from? If anybody says the number is greater than 1% everybody wants to rip that person and ask where is the evidence to back such a claim. So where is your evidence to back your claim?

Given that the cam phaser issues have persisted across the 17-19 model years of the Gen 2, the number ought to be higher than 1%. Some dealerships have told Gen 2 owners that they have worked on multiple Gen 2 Raptors at their dealership to fix the issue. But again, nobody has data on the problem. I am not saying the number of Raptors having problems are a majority of the trucks out there. But to say it is less than 1% when you don't have any evidence yourself is disingenuous to say the least.

As you noted, every make and model vehicle will have problems. But to state the Gen 1 V8s have had issues, then to follow that statement by saying the Gen 2 issues have been less than 1%—insinuating that the Gen 2 problems are less than the Gen 1 (again without factual evidence) is straight garbage because the Gen 1 never had an engine issue that spanned for 3 years.

If you like the Gen 2 better than the Gen 1, then that's fine. But don't use faulty logic to TRY and construct an argument.

Disclaimer: I am in the process of purchasing a 2020, which would make for my 4th Raptor purchased. So don't give me no troll hogwash.

With approximately >60,000 Gen 2s on the road, you'd need 600 cases to make 1%. Even counting ever recurring case I've seen on the forums (5 facebook forums, this one and several others) I still haven't made it to 100. My dealer has sold at least 50 Gen 2s - they've had a handful of F150s in for phasers, no Raptors.


Ford isn't going to share the data. But, the vast majority of people who have the problem will go online and complain/ask about it. If we assume only a third have done this, we are still less than 1%.
 
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With approximately >60,000 Gen 2s on the road, you'd need 600 cases to make 1%. Even counting ever recurring case I've seen on the forums (5 facebook forums, this one and several others) I still haven't made it to 100. My dealer has sold at least 50 Gen 2s - they've had a handful of F150s in for phasers, no Raptors.


Ford isn't going to share the data. But, the vast majority of people who have the problem will go online and complain/ask about it. If we assume only a third have done this, we are still less than 1%.

Yea, I wish we had access to Ford's data. The 600 hundred (or so) threshold is a small number in the scheme of things. For instance, all you would need is 12 Raptors per state to reach such a number. With a majority of Raptors being owned in states like Texas, California, and so on, the 600 number is attainable. Though none of us know 600 people, who have had an issue, it still does not mean that such a threshold has not or will not be exceeded. Your method of reasoning is at least plausible.

The issue was common enough for Ford to change parts, so they didn't think it was simply an anomaly. The unfortunate part to all of this is that the issue will not be put to bed for a while because any time that a 17-19 has an issue, the issue is rekindled. Hopefully the 2020s with the updated parts will not be another model year that has the issue.
 
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SVTTrooper

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I thought I would try out the Gen 1 and I can say that now I miss my Gen 2. Has anyone had the same experience going from Gen 2 to Gen 1

I went from a 17 Gen 2 to a Gen 1 and don't miss it. I was one of the few that had cam phaser and timing chain problems follow me from my 13 Ecoboost F150 to my Gen 2. Sure the Gen 2s have better tech, suspension and power, but I can solve some of that with cash lol.

besides every mile marker I reach with my Gen 1 saves me money, if I had my Gen 2 I'd be nearing 8 grand out of pocket on cam phasers as of right now.

also the cam phaser issue goes back to 09 when the 3.5 was released, Ford has said there would be updates to help the engine but so far all we've seen is lip service, no part numbers have changed to prove they've fixed anything. so while rtmozingo uses 1% as a figure then assumes 800 trucks is too many to have this issue is funny.. since Ford sells nearly 500k F150s a year, since 2009 they've sold 5 million trucks. Ford claims in 2017 65% of all F150s were ecoboosts, while Ford doesn't disclose how many F150s are sold they have said before they average 500k. so 65% of 500k? 300,000 ecboboosts sold. only 1% failure? that's still 3,000 trucks just for 2017. that doesn't include every other year and is still more than the 800 he claims.
 
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I went from a 17 Gen 2 to a Gen 1 and don't miss it. I was one of the few that had cam phaser and timing chain problems follow me from my 13 Ecoboost F150 to my Gen 2. Sure the Gen 2s have better tech, suspension and power, but I can solve some of that with cash lol.

besides every mile marker I reach with my Gen 1 saves me money, if I had my Gen 2 I'd be nearing 8 grand out of pocket on cam phasers as of right now.

also the cam phaser issue goes back to 09 when the 3.5 was released, Ford has said there would be updates to help the engine but so far all we've seen is lip service, no part numbers have changed to prove they've fixed anything. so while rtmozingo uses 1% as a figure then assumes 800 trucks is too many to have this issue is funny.. since Ford sells nearly 500k F150s a year, since 2009 they've sold 5 million trucks. Ford claims in 2017 65% of all F150s were ecoboosts, while Ford doesn't disclose how many F150s are sold they have said before they average 500k. so 65% of 500k? 300,000 ecboboosts sold. only 1% failure? that's still 3,000 trucks just for 2017. that doesn't include every other year and is still more than the 800 he claims.

The other thing to consider too is how will the Gen 2 engine age after the warranty is up. On the 04-08 F150s, Ford was plagued with the timing chain problems on the 5.4 V8. Such issues don't fully manifest themselves until an engine has been on the market for several years. IF the cam phasers become more of a problem as a Gen 2 Raptor ages, then that would be problematic given that there are at least 60k Raptors on the market that have the potential for such issues.

And as you have noted (and others have too), this issue was known going back to the 09-14 Ecoboost engines. It just leaves me scratching my head that Ford would allow this to continue for 3 years on the Raptor—much less a decade on non-Raptor Ecoboost engines.
 
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Badgertits

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The other thing to consider too is how will the Gen 2 engine age after the warranty is up. On the 04-08 F150s, Ford was plagued with the timing chain problems on the 5.4 V8. Such issues don't fully manifest themselves until an engine has been on the market for several years. IF the cam phasers become more of a problem as a Gen 2 Raptor ages, then that would be problematic given that there are at least 60k Raptors on the market that have the potential for such issues.

And as you have noted (and others have too), this issue was known going back to the 09-14 Ecoboost engines. It just leaves me scratching my head that Ford would allow this to continue for 3 years on the Raptor—much less a decade on non-Raptor Ecoboost engines.

Yeah and IF the Gen. 1s were made of AL they wouldn’t rust & IF they had stronger frames they wouldn’t bend, & IF they weren’t so heavy you wouldn’t need a supercharger

If a lot of things
 

rtmozingo

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Yea, I wish we had access to Ford's data. The 600 hundred (or so) threshold is a small number in the scheme of things. For instance, all you would need is 12 Raptors per state to reach such a number. With a majority of Raptors being owned in states like Texas, California, and so on, the 600 number is attainable. Though none of us know 600 people, who have had an issue, it still does not mean that such a threshold has not or will not be exceeded. Your method of reasoning is at least plausible.

FWIW, there are 6 Gen 2s and 2 Gen 1s in my parking lot. The only issue I'm aware of was water intrusion on the site manager's truck. The rest of us have had no problems.

I'm a member of most (if not all) the Texas Raptor groups, and was including those reports in my assessment. Maybe 30-40 reports from Texas? At least 5 with repeat failure, and two with 3 failures. Texas has the most trucks by a large margin IIRC.

I'm not saying my method is flawless, but I've yet to see anything better, and I get tired of people acting like every third truck has this problem when in reality that's not the case.


also the cam phaser issue goes back to 09 when the 3.5 was released, Ford has said there would be updates to help the engine but so far all we've seen is lip service, no part numbers have changed to prove they've fixed anything. so while rtmozingo uses 1% as a figure then assumes 800 trucks is too many to have this issue is funny.. since Ford sells nearly 500k F150s a year, since 2009 they've sold 5 million trucks. Ford claims in 2017 65% of all F150s were ecoboosts, while Ford doesn't disclose how many F150s are sold they have said before they average 500k. so 65% of 500k? 300,000 ecboboosts sold. only 1% failure? that's still 3,000 trucks just for 2017. that doesn't include every other year and is still more than the 800 he claims.

The cam phaser problem is not just an ecoboost one. Ford first had it on their V8s, and many other manufacturers have the issue. The problem (except in rare cases) is not the phasers themselves - if it were, we'd not see reoccurence. The issue is that upon startup the phasers are starved of oil, and compensate timing due to erroneous oil pressure. It has been postulated by several others - and I agree - that clogged oil ducts or something similar is causing the issue in the affected trucks, and the phasers are the ultimate failure point - not the cause.

The other thing to consider too is how will the Gen 2 engine age after the warranty is up. On the 04-08 F150s, Ford was plagued with the timing chain problems on the 5.4 V8. Such issues don't fully manifest themselves until an engine has been on the market for several years. IF the cam phasers become more of a problem as a Gen 2 Raptor ages, then that would be problematic given that there are at least 60k Raptors on the market that have the potential for such issues.

And as you have noted (and others have too), this issue was known going back to the 09-14 Ecoboost engines. It just leaves me scratching my head that Ford would allow this to continue for 3 years on the Raptor—much less a decade on non-Raptor Ecoboost engines.

Which further indicates the issue is not a design one, but a manufacturing one. I hear that many of the oil ducts are very small, so small that a tiny piece of debris would be enough to lead to this issue. The new parts just increased the time before failure as best as we can tell anyway.

With that said, I know of two Gen 2 Raptors driven hard with over 100k with no issues. One in particular goes 10k between oil changes and has 130k on his. I've seen 10 Ecoboost F150s with over 300k on reddit, who all claim nothing but normal maintenance.
 
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SVTTrooper

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The other thing to consider too is how will the Gen 2 engine age after the warranty is up. On the 04-08 F150s, Ford was plagued with the timing chain problems on the 5.4 V8. Such issues don't fully manifest themselves until an engine has been on the market for several years. IF the cam phasers become more of a problem as a Gen 2 Raptor ages, then that would be problematic given that there are at least 60k Raptors on the market that have the potential for such issues.

And as you have noted (and others have too), this issue was known going back to the 09-14 Ecoboost engines. It just leaves me scratching my head that Ford would allow this to continue for 3 years on the Raptor—much less a decade on non-Raptor Ecoboost engines.

true, which is why I went to a Gen 1. After 2 trucks with multiple timing chain/ cam phaser failures I'm over it. I can easily buy a Super Duty with a 6.2L and use it as a donor engine when the time comes.

I've read from others on here that Ford has released a TSB on the ca phaser issue, however the part number hasn't changed. this tells us Ford hasn't made any changes to fix the issue, nor do they care to.

FWIW, there are 6 Gen 2s and 2 Gen 1s in my parking lot

So you work for a dealership.. that explains a lot.
 

EricM

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So where did you get the less than 1% number from? If anybody says the number is greater than 1% everybody wants to rip that person and ask where is the evidence to back such a claim. So where is your evidence to back your claim?

99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

How about 99% of 6.2L engines will go 500K+ in fleet driven Superduties? Sounds like a good stat.

Sure, the TT V6 has been "OK" in the first 3 years and less than 50K miles, kinda. Give it 10 years. NFW the TTV6 go 250K+ miles on a regular basis with nothing but oil and spark plugs changes like the 6.2L engines do- all the time.

Bottom line is this, the guys who are the most ardent V6 supporters will be driving something else by the time their V6 starts to fall apart, and that's why they scoff at those who know what a POS it will be long-term. All they care about is how it moves the truck. Longevity and reliability do not matter.
 
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