Full Race's "Gen 2.5" Raptor build

[91Eunos]

Any higher rate DI injectors yet? I want to make the most on 93.

+1

 

[RaceUV]

Any higher rate DI injectors yet? I want to make the most on 93.

XDI makes a set that you can pair with their direct injection pump.

Ford F150 Gen2 / Raptor – Xtreme-DI

xtreme-di.com

 

[full-race geoff]

So @full-race geoff just to confirm, latest idea for the motor is Gen 3 block (including timing gear), worked over Gen 2 heads for the fueling system to work, and the best available (and compatible) oiling, cooling, and ancillaries…especially oil pump and dampener.

Correct?

Wild cards:
1) a/c compressor compatibility
2) knock sensors
3) oil pump modification(s)?
4) ?? What else?

Edit: My google-fu may be weak, but I can’t seem to find new 3.5 HO ecoboost motors from Ford; looked for short blocks, long blocks, and complete motors…nada from Ford.

I found tons of rebuilt ones from various vendors, but nothing new from Ford.

Any help getting pointed in the right direction to find a factory Gen3 long block as a starting point appreciated.

Edit#2: Nothing from Ford Performance, but found this:

https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/engine/new-gas-engines/engine-35l-p-nl3z6007a?pdp=y

And this:

https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/engine/new-gas-engines/engine-35l-p-rl3z6007d?pdp=y

…still searching for a Raptor (HO) spec motor

happy new year rob!

1/ you got my idea 100%: buy a gen3 complete engine new from ford, install Gen 2 heads and fuel system.

2/ there isn't much benefit to the "HO" moniker so Ford abandoned it with the Generation 3 3.5L engine... all 3.5L ecoboost generation 3 are the same spec. The part # for a Gen 3 complete engine is: NL3Z-6006-A -- tasca has it for ~$3700 (+1500 core).

3/ The current hold up / question marks I cant answer currently:

Oil Pump and Timing Gear: If anyone reading this is serious about beefing up your motors - email Boundary Pumps and let them know youre waiting along with me! They're a small operation and respond well to organic feedback and requests.

Knock Sensors: Will the Gen 2 computer freak out with Gen3 block using Gen2 knock sensors? nobody can answer this yet

A/C: The Gen 1 / 2 / 3 compressors all appear to share the same bolt patterns. Unclear if the Gen 2 AC lines have enough slack in them

everything else from motor mounts to head gasket to turbo connections to radiator hoses all appear to be 100% the same and good to go.

does the Gen 3 pulley fit the gen 2 and if so, could it be an “upgrade”?

Gen 3 pulley can physically fit the Gen2 engine and I'd consider it an upgrade over OEM! The incompatibility to be aware of is your Gen 2 block AC / belt position needs to move forward to line up with Gen 3 pulley. Of course if you don't need to retain AC this is a non-issue.

and now that im typing this, I forgot to measure if there's a difference in drive pulley diameter for the water pumps (i need to confirm)

Any higher rate DI injectors yet? I want to make the most on 93.

-Upgrading only the DI pump to a Nostrum or XDI + adding 1000cc port injector is the easiest compromise and straightforward to tune. At that point a boost-a-pump or a 2nd intank fuel pump should be in the cards to maintain fuel pressure

-Ive seen port injectors larger than 1050cc do not run well on this application. It seems like popping in a massive port injector should work fine but it doesn't. Most guys pushing the limits even on E85 end up switching back to the 1050s and are upgrading the DI pump

-It's complex to get an aftermarket DI injector tuned well. Also depending on your tuning setup I dont know any 3.5L with aftermarket DI injectors on Cobb (only SCT / HPT)

XDI makes a set that you can pair with their direct injection pump.

Ford F150 Gen2 / Raptor – Xtreme-DI

xtreme-di.com

do you know of anyone using these? We have many happy customers with these XDI injectors on the 4 cyl engines. MPT says they've tuned inconsistently on 3.5L - some just "work" with the native SCT injector multiplier scaling, others were all over the place.


happy new year everyone!

 

[RaceUV]

happy new year rob!

1/ you got my idea 100%: buy a gen3 complete engine new from ford, install Gen 2 heads and fuel system.

2/ there isn't much benefit to the "HO" moniker so Ford abandoned it with the Generation 3 3.5L engine... all 3.5L ecoboost generation 3 are the same spec. The part # for a Gen 3 complete engine is: NL3Z-6006-A -- tasca has it for ~$3700 (+1500 core).

3/ The current hold up / question marks I cant answer currently:

Oil Pump and Timing Gear: If anyone reading this is serious about beefing up your motors - email Boundary Pumps and let them know youre waiting along with me! They're a small operation and respond well to organic feedback and requests.

Knock Sensors: Will the Gen 2 computer freak out with Gen3 block using Gen2 knock sensors? nobody can answer this yet

A/C: The Gen 1 / 2 / 3 compressors all appear to share the same bolt patterns. Unclear if the Gen 2 AC lines have enough slack in them

everything else from motor mounts to head gasket to turbo connections to radiator hoses all appear to be 100% the same and good to go.


Gen 3 pulley can physically fit the Gen2 engine and I'd consider it an upgrade over OEM! The incompatibility to be aware of is your Gen 2 block AC / belt position needs to move forward to line up with Gen 3 pulley. Of course if you don't need to retain AC this is a non-issue.

and now that im typing this, I forgot to measure if there's a difference in drive pulley diameter for the water pumps (i need to confirm)


-Upgrading only the DI pump to a Nostrum or XDI + adding 1000cc port injector is the easiest compromise and straightforward to tune. At that point a boost-a-pump or a 2nd intank fuel pump should be in the cards to maintain fuel pressure

-Ive seen port injectors larger than 1050cc do not run well on this application. It seems like popping in a massive port injector should work fine but it doesn't. Most guys pushing the limits even on E85 end up switching back to the 1050s and are upgrading the DI pump

-It's complex to get an aftermarket DI injector tuned well. Also depending on your tuning setup I dont know any 3.5L with aftermarket DI injectors on Cobb (only SCT / HPT)



do you know of anyone using these? We have many happy customers with these XDI injectors on the 4 cyl engines. MPT says they've tuned inconsistently on 3.5L - some just "work" with the native SCT injector multiplier scaling, others were all over the place.


happy new year everyone!

@full-race geoff

I do not currently know anyone using them. I had seen them in passing and figured I would share the info. Personally I plan to use the FID1000’s that I have sitting on my desk, in tank DW400, and an upgraded HP pump (sourced from you guys at Full-Race). Speaking of fuel system stuff Geoff, do you have any experience with the DW400 and its PWM version that DW sells? Any better options for a single in tank pump that will do the job on e85?

P.s. I will definitely message Boundary and show some interest. My engine is old and tired. I know it will need a fresh engine at some point in the not so distant future.

Thanks.

 

[416wgt]

I also just messaged Boundary.

 

[91Eunos]

… Oil Pump and Timing Gear: If anyone reading this is serious about beefing up your motors - email Boundary Pumps and let them know youre waiting along with me! They're a small operation and respond well to organic feedback and requests…

Emailed them, told them I’m ready right now to invest in a better oiling system for my truck.

As an aside, it looks like Boundary does do a pump, gears, and even a crankshaft sprocket for the ecoboost, so is the issue just a matter of them adding a dowel or was it something else?

Ecoboost – Boundary Pumps

EcoBoost is a series of turbocharged, direct-injection gasoline engines produced by Ford and originally co-developed by FEV Inc. Used in the F-150, Edge, Fusion, Bronco, Flex, Transit, Explorer, Expedition, Raptor, GT

boundarypumps.com

Sorry if it’s already been asked and answered, don’t recall what the specific issue was that precluded using that setup.

And Happy New Year to you as well @full-race geoff … I’ll shoot you an email tomorrow after I call Tier1 to see where they are on rebuilding my transmission. I want to make sure you have some stuff in stock so I can pay for it, and grab it on my way there, or on the way back to Tejas.

 

[full-race geoff]

do you have any experience with the DW400 and its PWM version that DW sells? Any better options for a single in tank pump that will do the job on e85?

The OEM generation 2 raptor gets an impressive in tank fuel pump - In fact it outflows the dw400. FYI - The dw400 is best suited for generation 1 trucks.

I haven’t tried yet - but I’d say the next best option is something oem quality, brushless and pwm!

it looks like Boundary does do a pump, gears, and even a crankshaft sprocket for the ecoboost, so is the issue just a matter of them adding a dowel or was it something else?

Yes, these are for generation 1 3.5L Ecoboost’s. Missing the dowel on the oil pump and missing the second row of teeth on the timing chain sprocket

 

[RaceUV]

OEM generation 2 raptor gets an impressive in tank fuel pump - In fact it outflows the dw400

Is it a drop in replacement for a 2020 Expedition? Do you have a Ford part number? That sounds awesome!

 

[full-race geoff]

Does anyone have experience with the KHC front LCA kit? I was planning to weld plates on the LCA mounts and I found they offer a kit with 3 stages to heavily fortify the area: https://khcoap.com/products/gen-2-ford-raptor-slot-delete-kit

this is the stage 1, last bit of frame prep I planned on doing, would save me time having to fabricate:





Their stage 2 adds significant bracing to the forward mounts:


I'm trying not to add unnecessary weight to the nose of the vehicle, so the stage 3 is out for me

Is it a drop in replacement for a 2020 Expedition? Do you have a Ford part number? That sounds awesome!

It does fit the base f150, although I dont know if its a drop-in for an expedition. part # is HL3Z-9H307-F - lmk how you it works out if you do swap over

 

[RaceUV]

It does fit the base f150, although I dont know if its a drop-in for an expedition. part # is HL3Z-9H307-F - lmk how you it works out if you do swap over

Thanks Geoff,

I will definitely get one of these coming in the next few weeks and report back with results!

Also, definitely looks like that plate kit is a solid option. Especially if they will ship you the kit bare so you can MIG the plates in place. Just my $0.02.