Cam phasers?

[CCH]

The past two mornings when I started the truck I have had a rattle noise for around 30 seconds that then disappears. Anyone willing to let me text them a video of it to see if it’s the cam phasers issue? I can’t figure out how to post a video on the mobile site.

 

[Donmatteo]

It's normal on start up. If it was your phasers, it would only rattle for 1-3 seconds.

What's your build date?

 

[Frank N]

The past two mornings when I started the truck I have had a rattle noise for around 30 seconds that then disappears. Anyone willing to let me text them a video of it to see if it’s the cam phasers issue? I can’t figure out how to post a video on the mobile site.

As my trusted dealer service guy said, don't worry about taking the video Frank, it's the phasers. She'll do when I go to start her.

 

[CCH]

It's normal on start up. If it was your phasers, it would only rattle for 1-3 seconds.

What's your build date?

May of 2019. If it was the phasers would it be every single start?

 

[WraptorBoy]

The past two mornings when I started the truck I have had a rattle noise for around 30 seconds that then disappears. Anyone willing to let me text them a video of it to see if it’s the cam phasers issue? I can’t figure out how to post a video on the mobile site.

You can't post a video, only a link to a video. So you'd post the video on, say, youtube and paste the link here.

The phaser noise lasts 2-3 seconds. On my truck it's very subtle but you can definitely hear it. It hasn't changed in volume or length, that I can tell, in a year with 6K miles. 9/2019 build. But most have it at 30K miles. So I'll prob be out of warranty before it becomes an issue for me.

Have you watched the many many videos on youtube? If your sound lasts for 30 seconds, it's not the phaser issue talked about here.

The issue is when the phaser doesn't lock at startup. So, at next cold soak start up (no oil pressure for 2 seconds), the inner rotor will bounce back and forth until the galleys are pressurized with oil (2 seconds).

This rattling back and forth, over time, potentially wearing on the phaser more than was intended, is possibly why eventually the noise gets very loud and eventually throws a code. I'm not sure why I, and others, have noted a subtle phaser noise but others experience the very loud version you hear in the videos, which are eventually repaired. Mine is so subtle, I couldn't get a dealer to acknowledge it. I tried. But, I'm wondering if those phasers that are destined to fail start out like mine: very quiet and then just graduates to the full blown issue. I've never heard a normal start up of a 3.5 Ecoboost so I don't know if they all have this very quiet start up rattle.

If the locking pin shears off, you'd have a piece of metal or plastic inside the phaser housing which may also be why the phaser rattle gets so loud. There's a video that says "it's not a problem" is just his own opinion. A piece of busted plastic or metal? Of course that's a problem. You don't want tiny pieces of anything freely moving about in a phaser or any other part of the engine. Smaller particles will be carried by oil and so on. The cam timing (not to be confused with engine spark timing) is just for subtle emissions and power. So it's not an issue, unless the computer says so or there are physical pieces broken (e.g. the locking pin).

It is strange though. All phasing designs are essentially the same. Been around for 30 years. Locking pin to prevent the back and forth rattle while oil phases the cam timing based on pressure and computer controlled actuators. Not sure why it's such an issue on these new engines. Older high mileage, sure.


The noise you're talking about is why I'm replying now, as I now have a noticeable tapping noise for a few minutes, only at cold start up.

Either of these noises, for me, are only at cold soak. For me, that's the next morning.

The longer tapping noise, I believe, has got to do with the turbo's wastegate at start up but I'm not sure and I'm trying to search for that now. I thought I read something about this here and that's what I'm looking for. I suspect that is your issue too. Just a guess.

For me, after about 2 minutes, the new tapping noise goes away and is fine until next cold soak. It's very clockwork which is good in my opinion.

Anyway. do tell if your issue is resolved...

 

[FordTechOne]

You can't post a video, only a link to a video. So you'd post the video on, say, youtube and paste the link here.

The phaser noise lasts 2-3 seconds. On my truck it's very subtle but you can definitely hear it. It hasn't changed in volume or length, that I can tell, in a year with 6K miles. 9/2019 build. But most have it at 30K miles. So I'll prob be out of warranty before it becomes an issue for me.

Have you watched the many many videos on youtube? If your sound lasts for 30 seconds, it's not the phaser issue talked about here.

The issue is when the phaser doesn't lock at startup. So, at next cold soak start up (no oil pressure for 2 seconds), the inner rotor will bounce back and forth until the galleys are pressurized with oil (2 seconds).

This rattling back and forth, over time, potentially wearing on the phaser more than was intended, is possibly why eventually the noise gets very loud and eventually throws a code. I'm not sure why I, and others, have noted a subtle phaser noise but others experience the very loud version you hear in the videos, which are eventually repaired. Mine is so subtle, I couldn't get a dealer to acknowledge it. I tried. But, I'm wondering if those phasers that are destined to fail start out like mine: very quiet and then just graduates to the full blown issue. I've never heard a normal start up of a 3.5 Ecoboost so I don't know if they all have this very quiet start up rattle.

As has been explained before, the noise does not vary in amplitude. Either the phaser is failed (loud) or not. There is no failure mode possible where it starts out quiet and then gets louder. The only variable is duration. Clearly, your truck does not have the issue. If it did, it would sound just like the others, and the dealer would have fixed it. I do not understand why you are convinced you have an issue that does not exist. You are hearing normal cold start noise that occurs as the valvetrain receives oil pressure and the lash adjusters pump up.

 

[WraptorBoy]

As has been explained before, the noise does not vary in amplitude. Either the phaser is failed (loud) or not. There is no failure mode possible where it starts out quiet and then gets louder. The only variable is duration. Clearly, your truck does not have the issue. If it did, it would sound just like the others, and the dealer would have fixed it. I do not understand why you are convinced you have an issue that does not exist. You are hearing normal cold start noise that occurs as the valvetrain receives oil pressure and the lash adjusters pump up.

I'm concerned because I understand how cam phasers work. We can agree to disagree that this is a binary issue. I believe a phaser can start to fail and eventually fully fail. If the rotor is not locked at startup (hence the noise) you will hear it rattle quietly. The rattle will vibrate nearby parts and over time cause other minor local failures due to the slapping back and forth, which wasn't intended, nor it's consequences. On my truck I hear the rattle, just a much more scaled down version of it. Others have said the same thing on their trucks, then some said they got the failure a year later. My assumption: I hear the noise, albeit quiet, which means that the inner rotor is not locking at startup. 2 seconds of diesel sound but quieter. Eventually (years?) it will quietly rattle and rattle and over time cause more local issues leading to the pin breaking, then the final failure. I love the truck but I just can't trust it... but I want to which is why I still have it.

In ANY case, the inner rotor will move from within it's spectrum of movement, right? If it's locked, which it should be if the pin is working, there will be ZERO movement at startup. No rattle noise. If it's not locked, then oil pressure exists, has displaced the pin, unlocking the rotor and again, ZERO movement and ZERO rattle noise because the oil pressure in the galley has pushed the rotor to one respective end (emissions or power bias) of its spectrum. Right? There is also a coiled spring that loads the rotor on the other side. Hence, it's impossible for ANY rattle to be heard if all parts are functioning correctly. Impossible. So the likely explanation is the pin breaks, which causes the rotor to slap back and forth until there is oil pressure. Right? While you keep saying these are normal startup noises, I disagree again. I have a Lexus that uses essentially the same phasing tech: pin, oil pressure and all. Zero start up noise. As I mentioned, there is nothing new about this tech. It's been out for at least 30 years. Then why have I and others hears the same exact rattle noise just really quiet? Same noise. Same length of time. Two explanations: they're faulty and will eventually fail in 20K miles or it's normal. Since pretty much every engine made has variable cam timing since the 90s, that also uses cam phasing just like the Ford's, why is it I've never heard this issue on any other engine except when it's failed or about to. I've had Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Dodge. They all use variable cam timing and most of them the same exact design as our Fords. So, I can't say it's normal even though it's a quiet rattle. Oh and Audi (I think) has issues too but they recalled theirs.

I don't think people are normally putting their ear up to the engine when starting up, cold. I did because I wanted to make sure I didn't have the issue. I do have the (quieter) rattle noise. But, we can agree to disagree on this.

I mostly agree with you... at this time. I don't have any issues (except the new ticking I now have for 2 minutes at cold startup). But, in 30K miles, if I have the full blown issue, do you want me to say "I told you so"?

Besides, I was just addressing the OP's concern of his noise not being the cam issue. AND you said the builders didn't get the new parts of the new design until end of 2019 which means my engine probably has the same parts as all others the years before it. I can't imagine Ford built my Raptor engine when I ordered it. It's more likely they have some crated on the shelf waiting to be installed. More reasoning that supports I likely have the old phaser design. Nothing abnormal though.

I'm not trying to be an ahole. I love the truck. I'm just trying to dissect the rattle noise(s) I have or I can't keep it. I've had people work on vehicles and they mostly make stuff worse. That's the REAL issue you know. If all mechs were excellent, issues wouldn't matter. Drop it off, they fix it, back in business.

So, I walked up to the front of mine and had my phone prob 6 inches from the grill then remote started it. I can hear the soft rattle from across the room now though because I know it's there.

I'll tell you what. Post a link with a normal, cold soaked raptor engine (say 24 hours) that does not have the issue. If I also hear a faint rattle, just like mine, then I will concede and consider it normal and not worry as much.

Deal?

 

[FordTechOne]

I'm concerned because I understand how cam phasers work. We can agree to disagree that this is a binary issue. I believe a phaser can start to fail and eventually fully fail. If the rotor is not locked at startup (hence the noise) you will hear it rattle quietly. The rattle will vibrate nearby parts and over time cause other minor local failures due to the slapping back and forth, which wasn't intended, nor it's consequences. On my truck I hear the rattle, just a much more scaled down version of it. Others have said the same thing on their trucks, then some said they got the failure a year later. My assumption: I hear the noise, albeit quiet, which means that the inner rotor is not locking at startup. 2 seconds of diesel sound but quieter. Eventually (years?) it will quietly rattle and rattle and over time cause more local issues leading to the pin breaking, then the final failure. I love the truck but I just can't trust it... but I want to which is why I still have it.

Your assumptions and what "you believe" are not relevant; the facts are. You have been pursuing your claim of this non-existent failure mode forever; it's getting ridiculous at this point. There is not a single report of a cam phaser issue starting out as a "scaled down rattle" and then getting progressively worse, because it doesn't happen. The phaser either fails to lock or it doesn't. There is no partial lock or partial failure, period. Your concocted theory has zero facts or data behind it.

In ANY case, the inner rotor will move from within it's spectrum of movement, right? If it's locked, which it should be if the pin is working, there will be ZERO movement at startup. No rattle noise. If it's not locked, then oil pressure exists, has displaced the pin, unlocking the rotor and again, ZERO movement and ZERO rattle noise because the oil pressure in the galley has pushed the rotor to one respective end (emissions or power bias) of its spectrum. Right? There is also a coiled spring that loads the rotor on the other side. Hence, it's impossible for ANY rattle to be heard if all parts are functioning correctly. Impossible. So the likely explanation is the pin breaks, which causes the rotor to slap back and forth until there is oil pressure. Right? While you keep saying these are normal startup noises, I disagree again. I have a Lexus that uses essentially the same phasing tech: pin, oil pressure and all. Zero start up noise. As I mentioned, there is nothing new about this tech. It's been out for at least 30 years. Then why have I and others hears the same exact rattle noise just really quiet? Same noise. Same length of time. Two explanations: they're faulty and will eventually fail in 20K miles or it's normal. Since pretty much every engine made has variable cam timing since the 90s, that also uses cam phasing just like the Ford's, why is it I've never heard this issue on any other engine except when it's failed or about to. I've had Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Dodge. They all use variable cam timing and most of them the same exact design as our Fords. So, I can't say it's normal even though it's a quiet rattle. Oh and Audi (I think) has issues too but they recalled theirs.

You're really off the deep end. You continue to "disagree", yet you have zero credentials or experience in the automotive field to back up anything you're claiming. You're basing your entire theory off of something that you made up. Every engine design will sound unique on a cold start, and the 3.5 EcoBoost is no different. You have 2 fuel systems operating including the high pressure fuel pump, the PCM strategy running self tests and adjusting parameters to light off the catalysts as quickly as possible, electronic wastegates cycling, and the hydraulic valve train pumping up. You're making the assumption that the noises you're hearing (with zero experience) are cam phaser related when they're clearly not.

I don't think people are normally putting their ear up to the engine when starting up, cold. I did because I wanted to make sure I didn't have the issue. I do have the (quieter) rattle noise. But, we can agree to disagree on this.

I mostly agree with you... at this time. I don't have any issues (except the new ticking I now have for 2 minutes at cold startup). But, in 30K miles, if I have the full blown issue, do you want me to say "I told you so"?

You won't be telling anyone "I told you so" because your theory holds no water. If you "put your ear" up to any engine on a cold start you will hear a variety of normal noises; it's a complex mechanical device. You are sounding like a hypochondriac.

Besides, I was just addressing the OP's concern of his noise not being the cam issue. AND you said the builders didn't get the new parts of the new design until end of 2019 which means my engine probably has the same parts as all others the years before it. I can't imagine Ford built my Raptor engine when I ordered it. It's more likely they have some crated on the shelf waiting to be installed. More reasoning that supports I likely have the old phaser design. Nothing abnormal though.

Wrong..again. The TSBs are based on vehicle build date, not engine build date. The part revision came in 07/2018.

I'm not trying to be an ahole. I love the truck. I'm just trying to dissect the rattle noise(s) I have or I can't keep it. I've had people work on vehicles and they mostly make stuff worse. That's the REAL issue you know. If all mechs were excellent, issues wouldn't matter. Drop it off, they fix it, back in business.

So, I walked up to the front of mine and had my phone prob 6 inches from the grill then remote started it. I can hear the soft rattle from across the room now though because I know it's there.

I'll tell you what. Post a link with a normal, cold soaked raptor engine (say 24 hours) that does not have the issue. If I also hear a faint rattle, just like mine, then I will concede and consider it normal and not worry as much.

Deal?

Nobody is accusing you of being an "a-hole", but you're certainly being overly sensitive to normal engine sounds. You've posted videos before, and everyone, myself included, agreed that it was normal cold engine sound. You're wasting a lot of time and energy stressing out about an issue that doesn't exist.

 

[WraptorBoy]

Wrong..again. The TSBs are based on vehicle build date, not engine build date. The part revision came in 07/2018.

Nobody is accusing you of being an "a-hole", but you're certainly being overly sensitive to normal engine sounds. You've posted videos before, and everyone, myself included, agreed that it was normal cold engine sound. You're wasting a lot of time and energy stressing out about an issue that doesn't exist.

Seriously man, You need to relax.

I'm not stressing out because of this issue. It's just going to be a factor in me keeping the vehicle or not. This is a forum and, as such, people have an ability to voice themselves and gather information from others. I guess not from your stronghold in the ford world. So lets give everyone only YOUR point of view. Do as I say not as I do eh? Hmmm. Must be a liberal.

Seriously? No credentials? Did you invent this? I've been working on cars probably before you were born. Who's making assumptions now?

Proof you have no idea what you're talking about and can't even remember what YOU said:

ME from today: "AND you said the builders didn't get the new parts of the new design until end of 2019"

FROM YOU Oct 23, 2020 at 12:18 PM : "The only ones that have exhibited repeat repairs are those that were either incorrectly repaired by the dealer or were repaired before the new service parts were released in 10/19." <<-------- SEE THAT.

This is the second time you've stated dates and later stated different dates so there's your proof.

So frkin relax FRANCES.

 

[isis]

Sell your truck.