GEN 2 Tyre rotation and TPMS sensor

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

K223

FRF Addict
Joined
Sep 15, 2019
Posts
5,192
Reaction score
3,459
Location
Florida
To me I think the only way it can know and learn where a wheel’s location is on the truck is by signal strength and direction in which it receives that low frequency signal. Multiple antennas as well? While it sounds advanced, it shouldn’t be to hard to have implemented.

Or can there be a TPMS receiver at all four corners? Makes you wonder now.
 

OriginalToken

Full Access Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Posts
180
Reaction score
155
Thanks for taking the time and effort to create that video. In this case, it appears that the Workshop Manual is either incorrect or not updated for the newer models years. Sorry for the conflicting information. I’m interested in understanding how the system is able to determine the position of each sensor, that is impressive.

I have a few guesses on this, all very much just guesses. The following is the route I would look into first if I was putting together a system to do this.

One potential answer is a TPMS sensor at each wheel location. But you would think that would be clear in the manual, and that would increase complexity, probability of failure, and cost, so lets shelve that one for right now and think of other techniques that might work. Lets assume the system cannot directly measure the location of the TPMS IDs and must derive the location some other way.

I have noticed that the drive route after a tire rotation seems to impact how quickly the system identifies which tire is where. Routes with more and tighter turns and stops seem to finish finding the tire locations fastest.

What happens when you turn corners? All 4 tires turn at different rates. Because the system knows the steering turning angle it could calculate the projected speed ratios of all 4 tire locations in real time. And the actual wheel speeds can be sensed by the ABS wheel speed sensors. But that is only part of the puzzle, that still does not tie a specific TPMS ID number to a specific location.

What changes with tire pressure? The rolling diameter of the tire, lower pressure equals smaller rolling diameter and higher wheel rotation rates.

If the computer only knows that TPMS ID #1 is 39 PSI, TPMS ID #2 is 37 PSI, TPMS ID #3 is 34 PSI, and TPMS #4 is 33 PSI, then, assuming matching tires on all 4 corners, it knows that going straight down the road #1 will turn slowest, #2 will be next fastest, #3 will be next, and #4 will turn fastest. Even if you have all 4 tires set to the same cold pressure there will be different heating on each corner, and so the pressure will not stay the same all the time.

Combine the ability to predict relative roll rates under various conditions with the speed sensor in each tire location and that might allow the computer to calculate what tire is where, even using a single TPMS receiver.

Maybe.

And such a technique may also explain why the manual training mode exists and is in the manual. Mismatched or staggered tires may confuse the system and never arrive at the correct locations for tires. The computer may contain logic along the lines of "if manually trained ignore calculations of wheel location" or something like that.

T!
 
Last edited:

smurfslayer

Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. We’re hunting sasquatch77
Joined
Dec 16, 2016
Posts
17,550
Reaction score
27,025
Back in ’17 I did a service and chatter indicated we’d have to do this procedure from the manual to get the TPMS working. I asked about it and s/a said ‘no, the truck will learn the new positions in a few miles’. I thought it was BS and figured I’d be doing the procedure in the driveway, but no, I got readings on the way home. I re-set my tire pressure, lowering the rear PSI a bit, and the next AM in a mile or 2 I had current and accurate readings, backstopped with readings from my known, good gauge.
 

K223

FRF Addict
Joined
Sep 15, 2019
Posts
5,192
Reaction score
3,459
Location
Florida
I can concur. Had a shop recently rotate mine. And I know they didn’t go through that reset and learn procedure. Had them all around 38 for the alignment after spring install as well. Came home and adjusted pressure. Tires were correct on all four corners.

I’m a little curious to how the truck does it however.
 

GordoJay

FRF Addict
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Posts
7,429
Reaction score
15,834
Location
Colorado
I’m a little curious to how the truck does it however.

Maybe two antennas placed off the center line and off the midline, asymmetrically about the center. You could measure the difference in time between when each antenna received the signal from a particular tire and figure out which tire it is. That would be easy once you account for tire rotation. That's probably the hardest part. There may well be a cheaper way to do it, and someone pretty smart probably thought about it for a year or so ... and cheap rules the manufacturing world. But that would be my first slash at it. Hmmm, here's second slash. An antenna in each wheel well and a multiplexer feeding the receiver. Measure relative peak signal strength from all four wheels at all four antennas. That way each wheel could transmit at a different signal level and you could still sort it all out. Either of these would work, but likely they're doing something rather more clever and much cheaper.
 

Johnkn

FRF Addict
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Posts
1,259
Reaction score
894
Location
LaPlata, MD
My 2019 appears to self learn as well.

I’ve had the tires rotated @ 5k mile increments (4) times now. I have either watched the tires be rotated to the pattern I desire or have done it myself each time. I religiously maintain pressures, and each time I work pressures on a specific corner, the changes properly appear on the instrument cluster gauge.
 

FordTechOne

FRF Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Posts
6,664
Reaction score
13,041
Location
Detroit
I have a few guesses on this, all very much just guesses. The following is the route I would look into first if I was putting together a system to do this.

One potential answer is a TPMS sensor at each wheel location. But you would think that would be clear in the manual, and that would increase complexity, probability of failure, and cost, so lets shelve that one for right now and think of other techniques that might work. Lets assume the system cannot directly measure the location of the TPMS IDs and must derive the location some other way.

I have noticed that the drive route after a tire rotation seems to impact how quickly the system identifies which tire is where. Routes with more and tighter turns and stops seem to finish finding the tire locations fastest.

What happens when you turn corners? All 4 tires turn at different rates. Because the system knows the steering turning angle it could calculate the projected speed ratios of all 4 tire locations in real time. And the actual wheel speeds can be sensed by the ABS wheel speed sensors. But that is only part of the puzzle, that still does not tie a specific TPMS ID number to a specific location.

What changes with tire pressure? The rolling diameter of the tire, lower pressure equals smaller rolling diameter and higher wheel rotation rates.

If the computer only knows that TPMS ID #1 is 39 PSI, TPMS ID #2 is 37 PSI, TPMS ID #3 is 34 PSI, and TPMS #4 is 33 PSI, then, assuming matching tires on all 4 corners, it knows that going straight down the road #1 will turn slowest, #2 will be next fastest, #3 will be next, and #4 will turn fastest. Even if you have all 4 tires set to the same cold pressure there will be different heating on each corner, and so the pressure will not stay the same all the time.

Combine the ability to predict relative roll rates under various conditions with the speed sensor in each tire location and that might allow the computer to calculate what tire is where, even using a single TPMS receiver.

Maybe.

And such a technique may also explain why the manual training mode exists and is in the manual. Mismatched or staggered tires may confuse the system and never arrive at the correct locations for tires. The computer may contain logic along the lines of "if manually trained ignore calculations of wheel location" or something like that.

T!

Your theories are solid; I honestly didn't even consider ABS Module data since it's not listed as a component in the system. It's almost like engineering integrated a proprietary system and included no Description & Operation or Diagnostics just to see how it would fare.

The only system I've previously encountered that can determine TPM sensor locations is on Chrysler vehicles; they actually installed antennas behind 3 out of 4 wheel wells to self learn each TPM sensor position. Once it knows the first 3, the 4th position is a given.

For those speculating (as I am), here are the diagrams of the system for reference.View media item 15224View media item 15223
 

sixshooter_45

2019 Ruby Red Metallic SC, 3.5 L Twin Turbos.
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Posts
1,596
Reaction score
877
Location
Arnold
I can also confirm that it's not necessary to do a relearn as I've rotated my tires twice now and within a few short miles the information in the instrument cluster for the respective tire locations are updated to the correct tire pressure which matches the new air pressure settings set with my tire gauge.
 

Winchester30

FRF Addict
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Posts
1,555
Reaction score
5,321
Location
WI
Thanks for taking the time and effort to create that video. In this case, it appears that the Workshop Manual is either incorrect or not updated for the newer models years. Sorry for the conflicting information. I’m interested in understanding how the system is able to determine the position of each sensor, that is impressive.

I would bet the information has not been updated. There were some past tire shop articles about early 2010s F150s and the difficulty of resetting the tpms system.
How the new technology works is up to someone here to investigate and report back to the group.
 

engine45

Full Access Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Posts
200
Reaction score
71
Location
South Florida
The system DOES NOT automatically know the position of each wheel/tire assembly when they are moved to a different position on the vehicle.

The system only knows the sensor ID and the position that said sensor ID has been trained to. When you rotate the tires you need to perform the TPMS reset outlined in the Owner’s Manual:


Performing the System Reset Procedure
Read the entire procedure before attempting.
1. Drive the vehicle above 20 mph
(32 km/h) for at least two minutes, then park in a safe location where you can easily get to all four tires and have access to an air pump.
2. Place the ignition in the off position and keep the key in the ignition.
3. Cycle the ignition to the on position with the engine off.
4. Switch the hazard flashers on then off three times. You must accomplish this within 10 seconds. If you successfully enter the reset mode, the horn sounds once, the system indicator flashes and a message shows in the information display. If this does not occur, please try again starting at Step 2. If after repeated attempts to enter the reset mode, the horn does not sound, the system indicator does not flash and no message shows in the information display, seek service from your authorized dealer.
5. Train the tire pressure monitoring system sensors in the tires using the following system reset sequence starting with the left front tire in the following clockwise order: Left front - driver side front tire, Right front - passenger side front tire, Right rear - passenger side rear tire - Left rear, driver side rear tire.
6. Remove the valve cap from the valve stem on the left front tire. Decrease the air pressure until the horn sounds.
Note: The single horn tone confirms that the sensor identification code has been learned by the module for this position. If a double horn is heard, the reset procedure was unsuccessful, and you must repeat it.
7. Remove the valve cap from the valve stem on the right front tire. Decrease the air pressure until the horn sounds.
8. Remove the valve cap from the valve stem on the right rear tire. Decrease the air pressure until the horn sounds.
9. Remove the valve cap from the valve stem on the left rear tire. Decrease the air pressure until the horn sounds. Training is complete after the horn sounds for the last tire trained, driver side rear tire, the system indicator stops flashing, and a message shows in the information display.
10. Turn the ignition off. If two short horn beeps are heard, the reset procedure was unsuccessful and you must repeat it. If after repeating the procedure and two short beeps are heard when the ignition is turned to off, seek assistance from your authorized dealer

Now would this get rid of the idiot tire indicator on the dash. I have the rear passenger showing trouble etc and the tires fine.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
95,468
Posts
2,009,271
Members
59,076
Latest member
ja5657
Top