TRX throwing shade at the Raptor

[RMB_Ryan]

Maybe I’m late to the show but I’m a little bit lost by this? I thought the 3.5 had a lower peak torque RPM AND a higher peak torque?

Are you referring to the area between idle and 2k RPM’s as being a reason the V8 is better? I.e. the area where the V8 makes more torque?

Goood point. I know on dyno pulls we have to start them at 2250-2400 rpm to get converter to about lock up properly to get a good reading


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[RMB_Ryan]

Thanks for sharing. Was kicking around the idea of one of those STs for a train station car. Would mike a nice sleeper with 600 wheel.

Don't have much access to any of the "E-xx" fuels around these parts, though. Do you know what they are getting from these on 93?

I don’t but can find out


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[TurboTJ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

"All V6 engines— regardless of the V-angle between the cylinder banks— are subject to a primary imbalance caused by each bank consisting of an inline-three engine, due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank. Straight-six engines and flat-six engines do not experience this imbalance. To reduce the vibrations caused by this imbalance, some V6 engines use counterweights on the crankshaft and/or a counter-rotating balance shaft."

"Due to their short length, V6 engines are often used as the larger engine option for vehicles which are otherwise produced with inline-four engines, especially in transverse engine vehicles. A downside for luxury cars is that V6 engines produce more vibrations than straight-six engines. Some sports cars use flat-six engines instead of V6 engines, due to their lower centre of gravity (which improves the handling)."

Not a good high performance engine. Was never intended to be and is hardly ever used that way (relatively speaking).

V6’s are not good high performance engines?? Where the hell did you get that?

I’m a much bigger fan of I6’s and I4’s but you can’t argue with results! Over 3,000 HP with less than 4L of displacement. Not sure any other engine is even in that ballpark besides maybe an Evo IX

 

[FordTechOne]

The graphs speak for themselves.

Speaking of, I am really glad to have this copy with the Ford Performance logo on it now. This way people can't just continue to deny reality. Oh wait... nevermind.

View attachment 144278

Yes, they do. And by only 2,000 RPM the 3.5 HO is within less than 15 lb/ft of what the 6.2 makes at it’s peak.

Your definition of “low end torque” is not rational; nobody drives around at 1,000 RPM. I suppose you also think that the 3.0 and 6.7 Powerstroke have no “low end torque” since they produce peak torque at approximately the same engine speed as the 3.5? Your bias against the Gen 2 Raptor has clouded your thinking.

You never answered any of the previous questions...

What passenger car was the Gen 2 3.5 EcoBoost used in?

How is the Gen 2 EcoBoost “overstressed” when is has less output per liter than the 5.2 GT500 V8?

What are your “automotive knowledge” credentials?

 

[RMB_Ryan]

V6’s are not good high performance engines?? Where the hell did you get that?

I’m a much bigger fan of I6’s and I4’s but you can’t argue with results! Over 3,000 HP with less than 4L of displacement. Not sure any other engine is even in that ballpark besides maybe an Evo IX

HELL YES! My friends baby eating 2JZ running 6’s and one of his spares. Concrete filled no water in heads welded shut. 98 pounds of boost.

My 93 fox cobra has a 2JZ and a TH400 too







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[RMB_Ryan]

The 6.7 has even more low and torque than the 6.2. That's why the 6.2 and 6.7 are Super Duty engines.

V6s, on the other hand, are not used in heavy duty trucks. Can you name some heavy duty trucks with V6 engines?

Again, they are also very rarely used in high performance applications. Aside from the Ford GT, which has a V6 due to ridiculous Le Mans class rules and Ford's homologation requirement, and the GTR, which is statistically insignificant, what high performance cars have V6 engines?

A 2JZ [emoji12][emoji2957]

 

[RMB_Ryan]

Just for the badass factor because everyone likes a 2JZ

Fox 93 cobra my race car mock up th400 trans

Fabbing new k member





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[RMB_Ryan]

Straight sixes are great engines. Relative to a V6, they are much better balanced and produce more low end torque. Big fan.

Always wished Ford would make an Ecoboost version of a straight six, reminiscent of the old 300. That, or a small undersquare V8 ecoboost would be an ideal light truck engine.

I am actually a fan of the v6.

Why? As an engine builder geek who builds both as majority of business

1- con v8’s 90 deg blocks are harder on major thrust face loading of cylinders and have much more rod angle.

2- pro 8 cylinders to lower cylinder pressure across all 8 not split 6 ways.

4- v6 have bad cam torques due to 2 less lobes on dohc cams compared to v8

5- coyote blocks need sleeving and the cast alloy is not as strong as ecoboosts

6- all v6 and v8 cranks internally or nutrally balanced use a center counterweight. No real difference in balancing and we have made Gobs of power on the stock crank, or our billet stock or stroked cranks.

7- if we take a mclaren for example 4.2 or 3.8l v8 with short stroke and 93mm bore I think they have nothing to the crank and my suggestion if anyone hits lotto never never never buy one. Pick your teeth with mclaren cranks. Literally.

8- I like all things that make big boost and power and never seen a balance shaft on a v6 crank at least in the thousands of engines coming thru here last 10 years. Noticed that above.

Ford FTW for American manufacturer 110%


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[lateralis]

Uhh... dude.. V6's have been used in a lot of cars. For performance wise Nissan/Infinity takes the cake of the ones off the top of my head (300ZX TT, 350Z, 370Z, GTR) all make good power. Honda/Acura has the NSX and TL/TSX. GM and Ford have used V6's for a long time too. Granted they were more of an econo thing they weren't exactly slouches either. Hell GM had the Typhoon and Grand National that put out some serious numbers. In the euro scene you got that nasty VR6 (sure it's an odd kinda V6 but still considered one) which makes lots power. Does a V6 sound as good as a V8 or a Straight 6? IMO no it doesn't but I'm not that picky.

In the graph you posted you SHOWED that the Ecoboost V6TT made more power down low... No one cares wth it makes below 2k rpm unless it's a diesel. Raptors are made to be high stung Baja trucks not tow trucks but even at that the ecoboost V6 has better power than the NA V8s. If Ford was using a NA 3.5L V6 for our trucks that would be a huge mistake, but its twin turbo. If they put in a V8 that made the same numbers as the Ecoboost V6TT than sure, but I guarantee it would cost a lot more since they would have to use some sort of forced induction to get it there like dodge. They are making big power in a smaller and lighter package..

As for more power in the raptor, more is always good but I don't think its really required. I'd rather them fix the rear suspension. Everyone who actually uses their Raptors is forced to upgrade the rear out the gate. They can't haul crap back there since the leaf springs are garbage. Everyone who says "it's a Raptor and isn't meant to haul" I think doesn't actually off road their trucks. Guys running thru the desert or whatever need to carry a lot of crap. 2 Spares, bigger jack, extra fuel, spare parts, recovery equipment and etc. That adds up and you can easily get well over 500lbs of crap not accounting for say the bed cage to hold the stuff. Now you're tail heavy with a light suspension that bottoms out all over the place. With that being said though it does look like for the new models of Raptor they are addressing the rear so time will tell. Oh yeah and better brakes.. for gods sake even the Toyota Tacoma has 4 pot solid front calipers but we get 2 pot floaters?

 

[lateralis]

If cars you can find at your local autocross, scca race event, drift comp or drag strip aren't considered "performance vehicles", I'm not sure what to say anymore.

I don't think the Raptor really needs more power. It's useless without the right suspension to back it up. You can easily outrun the suspension how the trucks sits now. More suspension advancement is what is required IMO especially in the rear. The Power Wagon comes with a 5 link rear while we still got leaf springs.

Now if Ford wants to bring over their Barra from Australia I'm totally game for that! That's a 4L straight 6 Ford makes that's comparable to a 2JZ that can make stupid power with a pretty much stock internals.