Torque sticks

[E_Net_Rider]

Everyone here cares enough that it is personal to each. And you might not trust a shop. There is good reason not to trust. Old and many years of experience I have seen many times where a brake job was ruined by a mechanic even just by rotating tires. I had a Bonneville I just had new tires and I did a complete brake job. I took in for tire rotation and a few hundred miles I had warped rotors and drums. I returned and argued my case. Manager claimed they always properly torqued. All I had to do was point through the window to the first bay where impact was used and then cap installed. He claimed they used torque sticks which they had in a bin just outside the window to support their claim. They looked new out of the box and never used.
Another location a customer came in with same argument. Manager claimed they always properly torqued. Customer, "Show me the tool!" None had and after the customer left the manager went to the shelf and got an arm full of torque wrenches. He went to each mechanic and told them to put in tool box. And they stayed there. They were not told to use them. LOL. Subsequent visits I never saw it used.
Now 5 years older since last brake job on my F150 and not feeling up to or having space I took for estimate. I know calipers have been sticking on front is reason and only 6000 since I did previously. Hurried, I had not time for caliper rebuild. Kaufman apparently does not want the job. Only flashed total price and would not let me have papers. $1350 for front brake job. No way. Torque sticks in box other side of window and they did not use or even a torque wrench. The last part as well as price says stay away.

 

[E_Net_Rider]

Over torqueing lug nuts doesn't ruin the rotors whatsoever. Maybe 30 years ago, but lugs haven't been anchored into the rotor for decades. All you are doing now is squeezing the hat tighter between the wheel and hub face, which does exactly nothing to the rotor.

Today's design lessons the chance but the problem still occurs. I guess you are ok with pulling the hub from over torque. Deformation that eventually ends up at the bearing?

 

[E_Net_Rider]

Torque sticks need to be calibrated to the specific gun it’s going to be used on. (Says this on the instructions) so even though the stick my be 150ft lbs, your gun may only get it to 130 or even beyond 150. Once you get them right, they are pretty accurate and the best thing is you are never going to over torque. Best use scenario is to have a setup that gets you to 5 or 10 short and bring it to spec with a torque wrench


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I agree for the most part although it reads like written in RPN, reverse Polish notation (math). That is once you have a stick, which is fixed at manufacturer, you calibrate a gun to it. That is one of the very reasons the ASE, ASME refuse torque sticks. There is no way to make sure the stick does not end up with a different gun if there are multiple in use. Further the failure rate of a gun is far higher than a torque wrench. So how often do the stick and gun have to be checked for calibration compared to the torque wrench?
And guns with a large rotation per stroke do over tighten. They do not stop trying to turn when torque is reached.

 

[E_Net_Rider]

No, but I can’t watch a video of them testing when I have time to kill. Are you familiar with his channel on YouTube? He usually does a pretty good job of testing and reporting his results. Case in point that the Amazon basics batteries were a better bang for the buck when compared to either the expensive batteries or the super cheap ones. But his channel is for entertainment purposes.


Now if you would like to get into a discussion if items necessary for design/examination should be free vs paid, I wouldn’t mind to have that conversation. But it would probably be more appropriate over a PM.

Getting the job done vs. getting the job done properly are totally different animals.
Batteries? I have no idea where you were going with this such as what type of battery. Or what type of testing within those parameters. And mentioning Amazon immediately raises caution flags. Their standards to quality vary wildly and their warranty is short, often deferred to manufacturer if you get any satisfaction from them. Warranties that sometimes are not worth the paper printed on, I take that back. Often no paper these days. LOL
My end goal would be function as designed minimum. Not doing a kludge such as finding a way to change jet engines in half the time by using fork lift and then as the problem worsens over a couple years the engines start falling off in the air.
Or a week after getting new tires cruising in my 68 Fastback HP Mustang (different color than Bullet) as you slow through 70 for a stop sign you watch your rear wheel pass you. And I did not make that stop.

 

[Jakenbake]

Getting the job done vs. getting the job done properly are totally different animals.
Batteries? I have no idea where you were going with this such as what type of battery. Or what type of testing within those parameters. And mentioning Amazon immediately raises caution flags. Their standards to quality vary wildly and their warranty is short, often deferred to manufacturer if you get any satisfaction from them. Warranties that sometimes are not worth the paper printed on, I take that back. Often no paper these days. LOL
My end goal would be function as designed minimum. Not doing a kludge such as finding a way to change jet engines in half the time by using fork lift and then as the problem worsens over a couple years the engines start falling off in the air.
Or a week after getting new tires cruising in my 68 Fastback HP Mustang (different color than Bullet) as you slow through 70 for a stop sign you watch your rear wheel pass you. And I did not make that stop.

This is probably on me and my lack of context, I realize that is is hard to read tone and context over text. I meant it more as a joke. His videos are reasonably informative and entertaining. He does a decent job at setting a control and performing various tests, but he is not writing a report to get published afterwards or anything. He is as the name sounds a farmer who does some decent videos and worth watching when you want to spend a little time on YouTube. I still recommend checking him out just for you information and knowledge.

I used his batteries as an example. The Amazon basic AA batteries were a good balance of cost versus performance against the mega cheap or the expensive Energizer/Duracell. Since the batteries are consumable/cheap item warranty was not a consideration. I should have been more clear on that, but I do agree with you that warranties do often vary in usefulness, think Tommy Boy and “it’s not on the box”

As far as torque sticks, I do not use them. If calibrated properly I could see their use for something like 75%-85% of desired torque and then finish off with a torque wrench. In practicality I don’t see that happening, snap em on and go and “next customer”. I personally, usually run something up snug-ish (very technical term for finger tight plus 10% lol) with an impact 1/4” or 1/2” depending on what we are working on and then finish off with my torque wrench.

In general I simply like looking into things and asking questions. In the instance of torque sticks from the outside looking in, it seems as if we are counting on enough torsional deflection to allow the hammer and anvil to slip passed one another and strike again while not applying further torque passed “desired”.

As you pointed out many variables contribute to the accuracy of the system. The key word there was system.

I should also point out that the the electric that I a familiar with use the hammer and anvil setup, and I assume that pneumatic do as well. At least a quick google search said so.

 

[ogdobber]

I agree for the most part although it reads like written in RPN, reverse Polish notation (math). That is once you have a stick, which is fixed at manufacturer, you calibrate a gun to it. That is one of the very reasons the ASE, ASME refuse torque sticks. There is no way to make sure the stick does not end up with a different gun if there are multiple in use. Further the failure rate of a gun is far higher than a torque wrench. So how often do the stick and gun have to be checked for calibration compared to the torque wrench?
And guns with a large rotation per stroke do over tighten. They do not stop trying to turn when torque is reached.

I don’t think you quite understand how a torque stick works. If anything the torque will go down after time as guns lose power not gain as they age.
In a shop that has multiple guns, it would be unwise to have torque sticks that could easily be mixed up.
However, the best use for torque sticks is to prevent over torquing, not bringing something up to spec. For instance, if I have a gun that is capable of 450ft lbs, with a 150lbs stick, at worst I’m going to be within 15% of my target with no calibration. With just the gun alone I’m in danger of going 150% over.
As far as failure rate of guns versus torque wrenches....drop them both from 5 feet and tell me which one doesn’t need calibration.



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[E_Net_Rider]

I don’t think you quite understand how a torque stick works. If anything the torque will go down after time as guns lose power not gain as they age.
In a shop that has multiple guns, it would be unwise to have torque sticks that could easily be mixed up.
However, the best use for torque sticks is to prevent over torquing, not bringing something up to spec. For instance, if I have a gun that is capable of 450ft lbs, with a 150lbs stick, at worst I’m going to be within 15% of my target with no calibration. With just the gun alone I’m in danger of going 150% over.
As far as failure rate of guns versus torque wrenches....drop them both from 5 feet and tell me which one doesn’t need calibration.



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Have you ever seen anyone handle an impact gun as if a calibrated instrument? Sticks are designed to flex a specific amount at a specific angular motion according to the desired torque. This will be nuanced by velocity because static friction is higher.
Whether using a ratchet style or hammer and anvil you have to assume 'that instrument' was checked against all possible sticks at its highest possible output to avoid over torque and then follow with the torque wrench which always achieves further tightening. Turning an impact into a nut runner?
Built to the identical standards a push-rod 6 cylinder will outlast a 8 cylinder 32 valve dual overhead cam. Complexity is the killer. Far more moving parts.