Throttle stuttering on acceleration

[03'Darin]

Does it happen with the truck in 5th gear manual mode, or only when in auto mode? I can't seem to get mine to do it, but I'll try again...

I haven't tried it in manual mode. Driving my truck for so long I can actually detect it in almost every gear now. It's very noticeable on a long steady pull in drive when the tranny is pulling through 5th gear. But it's still detectable in other gears. Just not as pronounced.

Believe me if your truck does it you'll feel it. It's very noticeable. This isn't just a simple "quirk" that's subtle and only annoying to a small percentage of owners.

Accelerating out on a highway my wife has already said to me "what's wrong with your truck?". So it's very detectable even from the passenger seat.

 

[smurfslayer]

Any chance you could get a video with good sound - windows up, radio off, blower off while it manifests?

If we need to go to a new post with some requested advocacy to get it fixed, it will help to be as illustrative as possible.

So it’s all 10 speeds, not just all ecoboost 10 speeds?

one word of caution - try to keep the confirmation bias in check.
I know what you’re feeling and thinking, I’ve had it myself and I think all of us do it to some degree.

You know the problem is there and you are hyper cognizant of it. You see it and feel it where it is legit and possibly when it’s just normal operation - maybe a little clunky normal operation but the point is that you may well drive yourself crazy picking up on this defect.

I had a CV boot blow on me, and rather than replace the boot, I got a new axle, boot, etc. as a kit. The doggone thing knocked threw turns ever after ... until I wanted someone to hear it or feel it. I’d ride around with no radio on for miles trying to make it happen and of course it wouldn’t . I finally stopped sweating it and rode my motorcycles more.

 

[FORZDA 1]

I haven't tried it in manual mode. Driving my truck for so long I can actually detect it in almost every gear now. It's very noticeable on a long steady pull in drive when the tranny is pulling through 5th gear. But it's still detectable in other gears. Just not as pronounced.

Believe me if your truck does it you'll feel it. It's very noticeable. This isn't just a simple "quirk" that's subtle and only annoying to a small percentage of owners.

Accelerating out on a highway my wife has already said to me "what's wrong with your truck?". So it's very detectable even from the passenger seat.

Darin, the data is in a specific DLL format for the Ford Diagnostic tool, and I can't get it to decode into any other format without the DLL.

However! I finally was able to duplicate the problem. I wasn't running a data log at the time, so no data, but it feels like the trans is pulsing, not the engine itself. it stops if you increase or decrease the load, so it is likely the line pressure feeding one of the internal clutches for 5th gear or a combination of clutches. I'll have to review the transmission clutch algorithm to know which clutch(es) are in use in 5th gear. The link was posted on the forum somewhere a while back I think. I also didn't feel it at all while in manual mode to hold it in 5th gear. Based on what I've read here, I'm guessing it is most likely a software bug that affects the 10spd trans. The clutches are sequenced by the software for each gear and there are at least two clutches combined for each gear. The software must release one or more clutches while engaging one or more for the next gear, up and/or down. This clutch sequencing is likely what needs tweaked a bit under the specific conditions noted by Darin.

Honestly, I've never felt the problem until I followed the scenario directions explicitly. It appears that while the problem may affect ALL the Ford 10Spd transmissions, it is only in a specific set of operating load parameters. It should be quite easy for the Ford trans team to set up the scenario in the lab to reproduce the problem and update the trans algorithm to avoid the problem.

All said, if you either poke it hard or otherwise don't try to get it into the "scenario", there shouldn't be a problem. This is likely why Ford hasn't already discovered and worked the issue in-house. The trans works awesomely at WOT and with light application of throttle, so YMMV.

 

[03'Darin]

Any chance you could get a video with good sound - windows up, radio off, blower off while it manifests?

If we need to go to a new post with some requested advocacy to get it fixed, it will help to be as illustrative as possible.

So it’s all 10 speeds, not just all ecoboost 10 speeds?

one word of caution - try to keep the confirmation bias in check.
I know what you’re feeling and thinking, I’ve had it myself and I think all of us do it to some degree.

You know the problem is there and you are hyper cognizant of it. You see it and feel it where it is legit and possibly when it’s just normal operation - maybe a little clunky normal operation but the point is that you may well drive yourself crazy picking up on this defect.

I had a CV boot blow on me, and rather than replace the boot, I got a new axle, boot, etc. as a kit. The doggone thing knocked threw turns ever after ... until I wanted someone to hear it or feel it. I’d ride around with no radio on for miles trying to make it happen and of course it wouldn’t . I finally stopped sweating it and rode my motorcycles more.

I get it. Once you hone in on a problem your complete focus is on it. My main problem is there are 2 perfect case scenario hills on my way home from work that show the problem in it's worst case scenario. Also my driveway is 1/2 mile long and mostly up hill. So the steady climb up the driveway each time I go home (even at light throttle) also exposes the problem.

Darin, the data is in a specific DLL format for the Ford Diagnostic tool, and I can't get it to decode into any other format without the DLL.

However! I finally was able to duplicate the problem. I wasn't running a data log at the time, so no data, but it feels like the trans is pulsing, not the engine itself. it stops if you increase or decrease the load, so it is likely the line pressure feeding one of the internal clutches for 5th gear or a combination of clutches. I'll have to review the transmission clutch algorithm to know which clutch(es) are in use in 5th gear. The link was posted on the forum somewhere a while back I think. I also didn't feel it at all while in manual mode to hold it in 5th gear. Based on what I've read here, I'm guessing it is most likely a software bug that affects the 10spd trans. The clutches are sequenced by the software for each gear and there are at least two clutches combined for each gear. The software must release one or more clutches while engaging one or more for the next gear, up and/or down. This clutch sequencing is likely what needs tweaked a bit under the specific conditions noted by Darin.

Honestly, I've never felt the problem until I followed the scenario directions explicitly. It appears that while the problem may affect ALL the Ford 10Spd transmissions, it is only in a specific set of operating load parameters. It should be quite easy for the Ford trans team to set up the scenario in the lab to reproduce the problem and update the trans algorithm to avoid the problem.

I don't think its something that would show up on video. It's mostly associated with the feel and not sound or visual.

All said, if you either poke it hard or otherwise don't try to get it into the "scenario", there shouldn't be a problem. This is likely why Ford hasn't already discovered and worked the issue in-house. The trans works awesomely at WOT and with light application of throttle, so YMMV.

I was afraid without the proper software that you may not be able to decipher that.

FSE told me today that it's the PCM (?) picking up slight torque converter shudder and making abrupt throttle adjustments to compensate. He took several readings of his own but basically said until it gets to a certain percentage of complaints per units that Ford most likely won't be addressing it. He will be forwarding the data logs from my truck to someone else at Ford for additional review(I just don't remember who and at what level).

He did tell me that the new Navigator is running the same programing as the Raptor. So if the Navigator exhibits the same conditions and enough people complaining it will probably get addressed.

 

[FORZDA 1]

....My main problem is there are 2 perfect case scenario hills on my way home from work that show the problem in it's worst case scenario. Also my driveway is 1/2 mile long and mostly up hill. So the steady climb up the driveway each time I go home (even at light throttle) also exposes the problem....


FSE told me today that it's the PCM (?) picking up slight torque converter shudder and making abrupt throttle adjustments to compensate. .......

I can see why the problem aggravates you particularly with your "every day" experience with it. Some of us are more fortunate that we really don't experience it much, if at all.

Also, the FSE may be thrown off-track with the throttle oscillating causing the pulsing felt by the operator. The throttle will adjust to maintain the requested torque/load. Personally, I would look more closely at the torque converter because the loads it feels can come from either or both directions. The throttle may pulse the load, or the trans may pulse the load. The way I understand it, the 10spd hardware is common between Ford and Chevy with the software programming the main difference. Anyway, I would expect that Ford would at least give the project to one of their new engineers to solve so they would get some experience in detailed field diagnostics. Oh well, good luck to us all!

 

[03'Darin]

I can see why the problem aggravates you particularly with your "every day" experience with it. Some of us are more fortunate that we really don't experience it much, if at all.

Also, the FSE may be thrown off-track with the throttle oscillating causing the pulsing felt by the operator. The throttle will adjust to maintain the requested torque/load. Personally, I would look more closely at the torque converter because the loads it feels can come from either or both directions. The throttle may pulse the load, or the trans may pulse the load. The way I understand it, the 10spd hardware is common between Ford and Chevy with the software programming the main difference. Anyway, I would expect that Ford would at least give the project to one of their new engineers to solve so they would get some experience in detailed field diagnostics. Oh well, good luck to us all!

I've learned a tremendous amount about how the electronics work on these trucks through this process. However I still only know a very small amount about.

I don't know exactly how much the FSE actually knows about what the direct root of this issue. I'd think if he and or Ford knew what the issue was it would be easier to make the necessary corrections?? The FSE seemed to think it's the tq converter data that's causing the PCM to make the throttle changes. i don't know exactly how accurate that is. But one of the first things Hotline wanted us to check when they got involved was the tq converter data.

 

[rock342]

Are you in a position where you can replace the PCM module with a new one, flashed for your truck? There's obviously a bunch of people out there with this issue and no clue on a path that gets it fixed.

 

[03'Darin]

Are you in a position where you can replace the PCM module with a new one, flashed for your truck? There's obviously a bunch of people out there with this issue and no clue on a path that gets it fixed.

I don't think so. We need prior approval from Ford for stuff like that and neither Hotline or the FSE believe that has anything to do with it. So without an approval code from them we won't get reimbursed for the repair.

I spoke with the FSE the other day in length about the torque converter and the readings. Hotline had immediately directed us to the torque converter once we got them involved and the FSE also looked at that first when he got here. So I'm thinking they must be seeing issues with the torque converter that could be causing this problem.

According to the FSE the software package they use to do the recordings is a little more in depth and precise than what the service techs use. So he went over my tq converter data pretty thoroughly. He didn't feel the converter was contributing to the issue but was willing to authorize it if we wanted to give it a try. I honestly don't want to just throw parts at the truck. The data doesn't justify the converter so I don't see a reason to try that. We're going to continue reviewing the data we have collected and I'm also going to try and drive another 17' Raptor.

 

[squeak]

I don't think so. We need prior approval from Ford for stuff like that and neither Hotline or the FSE believe that has anything to do with it. So without an approval code from them we won't get reimbursed for the repair.

I spoke with the FSE the other day in length about the torque converter and the readings. Hotline had immediately directed us to the torque converter once we got them involved and the FSE also looked at that first when he got here. So I'm thinking they must be seeing issues with the torque converter that could be causing this problem.

According to the FSE the software package they use to do the recordings is a little more in depth and precise than what the service techs use. So he went over my tq converter data pretty thoroughly. He didn't feel the converter was contributing to the issue but was willing to authorize it if we wanted to give it a try. I honestly don't want to just throw parts at the truck. The data doesn't justify the converter so I don't see a reason to try that. We're going to continue reviewing the data we have collected and I'm also going to try and drive another 17' Raptor.

I'll be in Hershey from Sunday to Tuesday with my 17 if you want to check her out. I don't think I'm experiencing the issues you are.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[03'Darin]

I'll be in Hershey from Sunday to Tuesday with my 17 if you want to check her out. I don't think I'm experiencing the issues you are.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

If it's convenient for you that would be great. I'll be coming through Hershey Sunday around 11am. PM me some info and if I can make it convenient for you we'll meet up.

If you are interested I'll also take you for a ride in my truck so you can see what it's doing.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer.

Our service manager, lead teach and I were just discussing my truck. We were considering the tq converter replacement just to see if that would make a difference. Thinking it may be worth a shot to see if it helps.