PMCS: Panoramic Sunroof

[KAH 24]

I didn't say preventive maintenance in general was a secret. I stated that maintenance of the pano roof was a 'best kept secret'. Seriously, do you honestly think the average person has any idea that you need to regularly lube up your roof like you need to get your oil changed?



Again, not the point I was making. I didn't say that the roof doesn't need maintenance, I'm saying it's not common knowledge. I've had at least 3 other vehicles with sunroofs, and never done any maintenance on them, nor was it ever suggested to me that I should. Didn't even hear about it when I bought my Raptor. When I had to bring my Raptor in to fix the pano roof, and at no time did they even suggest that I give a period lubing and such. I only learned about it here, which is rather disappointing.



You replied, but didn't answer the question. Is failure of a pano roof that was never maintained covered under warranty? Again, I am not suggesting that people don't maintain the sunroof or any other part of the vehicle that happens to be covered under warranty, just asking if it's covered.

It's good information and good that you're posting it here. I just think that the industry as a whole has done a rather poor job of getting that information to people who own sunroofs, and that's a shame.

@melvimbe

Candidly sir, I do believe that the average person should know that pano/sunroofs don’t start rattling, binding, nor do drain tubes clog by themselves—and that maintenance is required to keep things in tip top shape.

I have an ‘80s coupe where the sunroof operates as smoothly as the day the car was built—but I keep it lubed/cleaned. I guarantee it would have died years ago if not for PMCS.

I do not believe OEMs are responsible for telling people every little detail regarding basic PMCS—or the owners manual would be thousands of pages long (and wouldn’t fit in a glovebox or center console). I clean my dashboard with 303(tm) UV protectant, not because the OEM tells me too—but I know that it helps offset some of the UV damage—and I’ve clear ceramic tint on the windshield of some vehicles to protect against UV damage as well. These are things that some automotive enthusiasts do without needing it in writing.
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Clear answer sir—If your pano/sunroof breaks due to mechanical failure during the warranty period, it will be covered (unless one does something stupid to break the mechanism).

For example: I recall a specific instance where an individual attempted to install a sunroof deflector (one of those smoked lexan things that mounts at the front end of the sunroof—requiring brackets to be installed in the roof track). The person broke an item on the track due to incorrect self-installation. The dealership refused to repair under warranty (and we 100% supported the dealership on this one). We did not cover it under warranty—as it was clear that the customer did the damage. If the dealership had installed the deflector—and broke the track, it would have been covered by OEM warranty.

In reality, unless one has a defective panoramic (sunroof)—it will likely function fine during the OEM warranty period. Without periodic PMCS—don’t be surprised to encounter rattles/creaks/problems at some point, after warranty expires.

I hope this detail helps. If you don’t keep vehicles very long (or don’t care—as some don’t), I doubt it will matter whether you maintain the pano roof or not—as it will put up with neglect. If you do plan to keep a vehicle in top condition, then you’ll take initiative—and put in the maintenance—as things wear and brake at some point without PMCS.

 

[melvimbe]

@melvimbe

Candidly sir, I do believe that the average person should know that pano/sunroofs don’t start rattling, binding, nor do drain tubes clog by themselves—and that maintenance is required to keep things in tip top shape.

"should"? Nice word choice there. What you think the average people should know is irrelevant. The question is whether the average person does know or not. I actually agree that the average person should now this, because I think that they should be informed whenever they buy a vehicle with a sunroof.

I have an ‘80s coupe where the sunroof operates as smoothly as the day the car was built—but I keep it lubed/cleaned. I guarantee it would have died years ago if not for PMCS.

No one ever said that the sunroof doesn't require maintenance.

I do not believe OEMs are responsible for telling people every little detail regarding basic PMCS—or the owners manual would be thousands of pages long (and wouldn’t fit in a glovebox or center console). I clean my dashboard with 303(tm) UV protectant, not because the OEM tells me too—but I know that it helps offset some of the UV damage—and I’ve clear ceramic tint on the windshield of some vehicles to protect against UV damage as well. These are things that some automotive enthusiasts do without needing it in writing.

Maybe it's me, but if you fail to protect the dashboard from fading, the dashboard still works. If you fail to maintain the sunroof, you could end up with a non-functioning sunroof that requires $300+ in repair cost. Big difference. And why are you now talking about 'automotive enthusiasts' rather than the 'average person' you started off with?

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Clear answer sir—If your pano/sunroof breaks due to mechanical failure during the warranty period, it will be covered (unless one does something stupid to break the mechanism).

Yep.

For example: I recall a specific instance where an individual attempted to install a sunroof deflector (one of those smoked lexan things that mounts at the front end of the sunroof—requiring brackets to be installed in the roof track). The person broke an item on the track due to incorrect self-installation. The dealership refused to repair under warranty (and we 100% supported the dealership on this one). We did not cover it under warranty—as it was clear that the customer did the damage. If the dealership had installed the deflector—and broke the track, it would have been covered by OEM warranty.

Stating the obvious. Yes. Warranties are usually very clear about that.

In reality, unless one has a defective panoramic (sunroof)—it will likely function fine during the OEM warranty period. Without periodic PMCS—don’t be surprised to encounter rattles/creaks/problems at some point, after warranty expires.

I hope this detail helps. If you don’t keep vehicles very long (or don’t care—as some don’t), I doubt it will matter whether you maintain the pano roof or not—as it will put up with neglect. If you do plan to keep a vehicle in top condition, then you’ll take initiative—and put in the maintenance—as things wear and brake at some point without PMCS.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above. I just think much fewer issues with the roof would occur if there was an effort to make this common knowledge. Heck, why not include a free tube of lube when you sell a vehicle with pano roof or something of that nature? The message that issues are the customers fault for not maintaining, when they had no idea maintenace requires, doesn't result in fewer issues.

 

[KAH 24]

"should"? Nice word choice there. What you think the average people should know is irrelevant. The question is whether the average person does know or not. I actually agree that the average person should now this, because I think that they should be informed whenever they buy a vehicle with a sunroof.




No one ever said that the sunroof doesn't require maintenance.



Maybe it's me, but if you fail to protect the dashboard from fading, the dashboard still works. If you fail to maintain the sunroof, you could end up with a non-functioning sunroof that requires $300+ in repair cost. Big difference. And why are you now talking about 'automotive enthusiasts' rather than the 'average person' you started off with?




Yep.



Stating the obvious. Yes. Warranties are usually very clear about that.



I am not disagreeing with any of the above. I just think much fewer issues with the roof would occur if there was an effort to make this common knowledge. Heck, why not include a free tube of lube when you sell a vehicle with pano roof or something of that nature? The message that issues are the customers fault for not maintaining, when they had no idea maintenace requires, doesn't result in fewer issues.

@melvimbe

Sir, I answered your original warranty question from an OEM perspective.

From a P&L standpoint, calculate the cost of a tube of lube for every, single, vehicle with a factory sunroof. Dollars matter for a corporation. OEMs follow the law to the letter and I 100% support this.

One can purchase a detailed manual of all of the PMCS items needed to maintain a vehicle.

Respectfully, we simply disagree over certain semantics and personal viewpoints. Differences in opinion are a good thing.

No harm sir.

 

[Russ103]

@Russ103

Sir, fair question and I just validated this answer with one of my department colleagues with far greater expertise on such matters—i.e., seals (not the marine animal variety) and gaskets.

I hope this is helpful.

In this case you are just driving around with a large glass roof with synthetic rubber seals designed to keep debris/water out. Over time—water, sand/fine particles, etc., will find their way around the seals and into the drain tubes. Also, the seals will harden without UV protection and lubrication. Imagine how hot the roof of your Raptor gets on a sunny day—and the merciless beating the gaskets take (heat/cool thermal cycles) from the sun.

The analogy I think of is that if one owns a Rolex which is water proof—eventually the gaskets need replacing. The internal gear/mechanism oils harden and evaporate, and the watch eventually stops functioning (or the mainspring breaks from time/wear which has happened to my automatics). How long this takes—varies, but is inevitable. A high end watch has a warranty, but the watch will break after the warranty expires (if it breaks under warranty, it will be repaired by the OEM of course).

Have a nice day.

Thank you, very well said! I’ll take care of my (unwanted) sunroof rather soon then.

 

[smurfslayer]

Question is, does keeping it closed and never really using it keep it from needing a cleaning/lube? Truck is garaged.

No, environmental factors make maintaining the moon roof mandatory.

I have an ‘80s coupe where the sunroof operates as smoothly as the day the car was built—but I keep it lubed/cleaned. I guarantee it would have died years ago if not for PMCS.

I do not believe OEMs are responsible for telling people every little detail regarding basic PMCS—or the owners manual would be thousands of pages long (and wouldn’t fit in a glovebox or center console).

I disagree with your premise partially, as follows.
1) The F150 moonroof failures are legion.
2) This failure is more than just ‘common’.
3) As FTO has pointed out, the mechanism is quite sophisticated. I would go as far as to call it ‘intricate’.
4) as @melvimbe has alluded to, if not come out and said it with his out loud key strokes, Ford does not call out regular maintenance intervals, or what is required to maintain the moonroof without breakage.
5) I believe the mechanism is, relatively speaking, fragile. I say this because it appears pretty clear that the motor + weight of the glass + n amount of additional load induced by the glass sticking to the seal is enough to break parts in the mechanism, with somewhat great frequency. youtube / internet search has a heck of a lot of results for this.

The question is whether the average person does know or not. I actually agree that the average person should now this, because I think that they should be informed whenever they buy a vehicle with a sunroof.

Correct. Ford does a great job at calling out warranty requirements for the engine service, belts, hoses, spark plugs, transmission, etc.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above. I just think much fewer issues with the roof would occur if there was an effort to make this common knowledge. Heck, why not include a free tube of lube when you sell a vehicle with pano roof or something of that nature? The message that issues are the customers fault for not maintaining, when they had no idea maintenace requires, doesn't result in fewer issues.

^^^^
THIS. In my case it wasn’t that I thought no maintenance was required, I assumed, wrongly, on the frequency of the requirements and the potential consequences, and so on. Live and learn.

Thank you, very well said! I’ll take care of my (unwanted) sunroof rather soon then.

Yeah, exactly. Pretty much all the stealership inventory Raptors have the moon roof, which relatively few of us are really interested in. A lot of us have them due to market demand and no other Raptor available at the time, etc. etc. Some of us are totally ambivalent to it. Some here do actually want the moonroof and use it, but your point is not lost on me.

In 2016-2017 when I bought, no moonroof trucks were vaporware. I never found one actually available, due in large part to the Q/A delays releasing the ’17’s, Ramp 59, etc. I found 3 or 4 listed in various stealership inventories, none of which were present, and all of which were future ADM trucks. For comparison I had over 250 trucks to choose from within the same search from the Ford website, which obstinately will not let you de-select vehicles based on the moon roof.

I’m actually a bit surprised that Ford has not either updated their manuals or issued a memo of some sort to customers at least suggesting routine moon roof maintenance. This has got to be costing Ford a lot of money in warranty repairs from lack of proper attention / maintenance.

 

[melvimbe]

Yeah, exactly. Pretty much all the stealership inventory Raptors have the moon roof, which relatively few of us are really interested in. A lot of us have them due to market demand and no other Raptor available at the time, etc. etc. Some of us are totally ambivalent to it. Some here do actually want the moonroof and use it, but your point is not lost on me.

Personally, I like being able to roll back the screen/shade over the roof, and this is what I use 95% of the time. I don't care for the roof (or windows really) to be open at higher speeds, so it's rare. The moon roof feature seems pointless to me since you're cracking it open about an inch or so. Essentially, I'd be happier if there was an option for a fixed glass roof with the shade, which should reduce costs and maintenance significantly.

 

[leinad1904]

finding an otherwise fully loaded Raptor without a sunroof is akin to finding a unicorn.

This is why I went the custom order route this time around. When I bought my '19 I could not find one with the options I wanted but no sunroof.

 

[Russ103]

This is why I went the custom order route this time around. When I bought my '19 I could not find one with the options I wanted but no sunroof.

That’s something I will definitely do next time

 

[tfairweather1]

Good evening all,

PMCS (Preventive Maintenance Checks & Services) is important for every vehicle per OEM guidelines.

After a great deal of analysis, there is no flaw in the Ford Raptor panoramic sunroof design (which I love and works as smooth as a well cared for Swiss watch).

The failures, creaks, squeaks, etc., occur due to a lack of maintenance by the owner—yes the owner.

NOTE1: The pano could be engineered by Ford, GM, Toyota, Lexus, VW/Audi/Porsche, or Santa Claus Auto Corp—but if not maintained by the owner it is going to have issues—just like anything else that neglected. It is not the responsibility of an OEM to teach “pride in ownership”.

NOTE2: PMCS applies not only to vehicles, but to the human body. When systems fail, it’s in part due to the care provided over a lifetime—no warranty from the OEM manufacturer.

NOTE3: Regular cleaning of the drain tubes (my Raptor is garaged, so 1x yr works). If you keep your truck outdoors, especially if it lives under trees/sandy/dirty areas (I’d clean it at least 3-4x yr).

NOTE4: Ensure the lube you use meets Krytox specs—works well under heat/cold conditions (remember the sun heats the roof of our Raptors to 200F plus easily (hotter for darker vehicles) under direct sunlight—so the lubricant has to have the ability to cling/protect not evaporate under heat—while also being fluid/non binding when cold).

NOTE5: I PMCS with a white lithium based grease that does not attack plastics/rubber/synthetics. I do this with every family vehicle with a sunroof—and no failures. I also coat the seals with UV protectant—as they take a beating.

NOTE6: PMCS/Exercise the sunroof—and the rear sliding window as well.

The panoramic sunroof is a thing of beauty, but requires PMCS. If you maintain it—you’ll enjoy it.

If you don’t like PMCS, get a hardtop truck with no sunroof—but please don’t whine that Ford (or any OEM) created a “poor design.” Ford built a damn good pano.

Last note: My wife’s 100% garage kept silver ‘89 MB 560SL (with over 90k miles) has the OEM fabric top that works better than the day it was installed. The rear “window” is as clear as the day it came from the factory, and every seal is factory—and is as supple as the day it came from the line. We drive this car hard and enjoy it. It lives in the garage (safe from UV)—and it takes a lot of work to keep it that way. Part of the joy of ownership—and the best wife on earth.

Great info thanks! I do have a question though? Mine works well with the exception of opening due to the tight fit. I hit the button and it tries to open but then I have to get out and give a push down then it opens! The felt is clean ,I greased the tracks with special ford grease but gets stuck. It will pop up no issue but down to open no dice with out pushing down. What am I doing wrong here? What do you put on the felt (edge of sunroof)

 

[KAH 24]

Great info thanks! I do have a question though? Mine works well with the exception of opening due to the tight fit. I hit the button and it tries to open but then I have to get out and give a push down then it opens! The felt is clean ,I greased the tracks with special ford grease but gets stuck. It will pop up no issue but down to open no dice with out pushing down. What am I doing wrong here? What do you put on the felt (edge of sunroof)

@tfairweather1

I’d recommend this maintenance for any pano/sunroof/convertible top vehicle. This is only my opinion borne of experience and from experts who I listen to as a professional:

1. “Exercise” the pano roof—open/close, repeatedly on a regular basis. (This applies to the back window panel, the door windows (F/R and L/R).

NOTE: Tongue in cheek, I could say that someone could never roll down their windows, never open the rear window panel, and never operate the panoramic sunroof throughout OEM bumper to bumper—and hope that this means that never using the equipment means “it will last forever”. Per law and common sense, thankfully that is not how OEM warranties operate.

2. Thoroughly clean the “felt” and synthetic polymer seals thoroughly (clean rag and warm water works for me).

3. Use a krytox (tm) spec oil, or white lithium grease (safe for plastics/polymers) for the tracks.

4. For the seals “felt”, I use krytox, lithium grease, and for the surface I coat liberally with 303 (tm) protectant.

5. I ensure that the entire sunroof “channel” is clean and clear of debris on a regular basis (this keeps sediment from accumulating and getting into the drain tubes). Keep the drain tubes clear and you’ll not have leaks from water backing up into the system.

NOTE: Frequency depends on various factors—your environmental exposure to debris, indoor/outdoor parking, UV exposure, and use.

I hope this is helpful. A panoramic roof is similar to a convertible top on a car—some love it, some hate it, but it requires maintenance to ensure years of trouble free service.

Enjoy working on your vehicle and it will function as well as can be expected of a man made machine.