Mid/Top Perch-Couldn't you just cut a coil?

[LekRap]

@AZEngineer Are your RPG replacement coils any longer than the stock spring? What perch setting are you at?

To address your first statement...I think everyone that goes from bottom (stock) perch to mid (and especially top) perch all will tell you there is definitely a difference in ride. Some people prefer mid and some prefer bottom (very few if any will say they like the ride at top perch). I personally would choose mid for the off road improvement and height, but cannot deny that the on road, highway driving was better at bottom (stock) perch.

I'm hopeful that the added length of the Gieser Bros spring will help with highway feel and the "pogo" feel of the stock springs at mid and top perch. Like others guys have said, people cut coils to lower the stance of other cars and it makes the ride choppy...Im thinking by "adding coils" to the setup, it will soften the ride. We shall see...

I should get these Gieser Bros springs in the mail Monday. Depending if I decide to Powdercoat them, I should have them on the truck within a week or two.

 

[AZEngineer]

@AZEngineer Are your RPG replacement coils any longer than the stock spring? What perch setting are you at?

The RPG coil overs come on Fox 3.3 shocks and RPG preset them. They said it was about mid-perch. My truck has RPG's stage 3 rear suspension and my truck is level.

 

[onesickpuppy]

We do not have that much wheel travel for a true progressive spring to work correctly (25+" maybe). Nothing against the progressive spring guys, as they are in it to make a living too!
A spring should only be large enough to hold the car/truck up. progressive springs make it harder to out guess what shock settings/valving you need.
Shocks are what is the best for dampining, that is why they call them shocks. Replacing your stock spring with aprogressive and still holding mid perch shock orintation, will negate it's self out. The by-pass (stock) is made for a certain ride at that perch, changing the perch hight therfore moves the relationship of by-pass (pogo) on slow speed stuff.
Even appying my mod does not move all by-pass (the reed style) only the full by-pass port, but I can meet it anywhere I want.....
DO NOT cut coil/s off!!!
1. it weakens the spring.
2. it shorthens the spring so that it has less distance to compress over and WILL be stiffer as the rate will gain faster from coil bind, which may work for NASCAR but not offroad. ost have seen the low rider with hydraulics where they cut the spring (shorten) and make up with air/hydraulic and they bounce like basket balls. Air at least compresses some to take the bounce, but after all the shock now has to over come many factors to try and stop the bounce.
Do not be afraid of thinking out of the box, that is how improvements are made, but many have traveled the road of what not to do.

 

[LekRap]

Thanks @onesickpuppy for the rundown. I have to admit that I don't know much and am just now trying to wrap my head around and understand the technical aspects of suspension. Just the past few days I have begun to realize that what you say about the shock being at mid perch orientation (the shocks being extended more) gives the difference in ride. The more I think, the spring does not change at all on any of the perches. What changes is the pressure that the shock is emitting.

To be honest, it seems simpler to me to just replace the spring and thats one thing that incises me about the progressive springs. The many good reviews that I have heard is probably the biggest draw to me. I hear your point about why shocks are called "shocks". I would have to believe though that the shock AND spring work together in all aspects, even dampening. My theory is that the softer, and longer spring helps compensate for the added pressure given by extending the shock. Maybe from a valving/technical aspect, this isn't the exact proper way.

QUOTE onesickpuppy "We do not have that much wheel travel for a true progressive spring to work correctly (25+" maybe)."

From what I've researched about progressive springs, they are used in many many applications on many cars and trucks. I don't think those cars have 1/2 the wheel travel that our raptors have, right? And maybe if we don't get the complete, true, all in all benefit of the progressive spring...the bottom of the spring that is softer-wound closer together in order to give a softer ride for small bumps, thats got to benefit, right? That doesn't require a ton of wheel travel to kick in, does it? I could be dead wrong, this is just my logic-not based in fact, just theories!

I compare these front coils to why many people replace the rear leaf springs and notice such an improvement in ride quality. Would the shocks control absorbing the "shock" in the rear also? Why do people experience such an improvement with upgraded leaf springs like Deavers and National leafs?

From the many reviews and many PM's I have had with guys with these springs...I have gotten that these springs at bottom perch ride somewhere in between stock springs at bottom and mid perch. I did enjoy the cushy, "Cadillac" feel of the stock bottom perch...HOWEVER there were many aspects where I felt it was loose and not as responsive as I would like (especially for off road).

I also feel like replacing a spring is always completely reversible and isn't digging into and truly modifying a very expensive shock. To an educated and experienced person, its probably not that intimidating, but me to it sounds like I'm going to f@ck something up on $1,500 shocks.

Also, I do realize that cutting a coil is not a good idea. I appreciate you mentioning to "not be afraid of thinking out of the box". The more I have educated myself, I realize it was not a good idea and WOULDN'T ADVISE ANYONE to do that. It was a brainstorm idea and meant to stir up ideas and conversation.

Thanks again for helping me understand all this!

 

[onesickpuppy]

No worries.
Rear springs are changed mostly to give you more and thinner leaves that give a better ride, less wheel hop/axel wrap, stronger, easier range of movement overall than that mono leaf with adder does not have and is diferant than coil and torsen bars. Rear leaves are much like shock valve shims, with staggered size and thickness's.
Don't get me wrong, I have had progressive springs and torsen bars, but their non linerness is difficult for prediction when adding and reducucing preload.
Yes, you can always go back to stock springs. Usually nothing is non-reversable.
The other factor is what percentage of the time will be on road, towing/loaded, ? passengers, offroad, hucking, ect.
Never give up on thoughts that are out of the box, it can benefit you, and no questions are dumb questions. If not we would still be on horses and using candles.
Lou

 

[LekRap]

Thanks Lou,

I appreciate the encouragement! If these springs don't do what Im looking for, i will still be bugging you for guidance.

"Rear springs are changed mostly to give you more and thinner leaves that give a better ride"
@onesickpuppy I don't know the technical aspects of it all...but wouldn't your quote above about the rear leafs apply to the front too? Wouldn't these longer (more springs) and softer spring rate (thinner, in essence) have the same effect as rear leafs?

Also, what exactly did you mean that it depends on why percentage of the time will be on road, towing...etc.? From what Ive heard, these progressive springs are good on road and off. Is there any inherently weak areas of progressives as opposed to linear?

 

[onesickpuppy]

No problemo,
By percentage, I mean, What all are you doing with your truck?
I DO NOT plan to tow anything large, so I can dial my ride differantly.
I DO NOT huck/jump my truck, so I do not need a lot of high speed dampening, so I can narrow in on desert and daily driving as my normal averages. I like running large in the desert, so I like it to flow nice and and like the front to stay up and in front of me.
What is the avertised spring rate or graph curve of rate change per inch interval?
FYI I do run without my sway bar, which makes a differance in overall spring rate verses individual wheel spring rates. Also, keep in mind of your calc's that the shock is not 1/1 ratio.

In other words, I do not see a TT running a sprint cup road race with the same setup as the Baja or the 405 street, (not that is much differant 405 sucks... LOL) Your setup wants to be within your range of driving and style. That is where I am tring to see what your plan is for the truck.
Actually I am exploring a ring/spacer/other that would allow an intermediate to each of the machined in perch, such as a mid or lower perch.5 as it would be.
So, out of the box I am......
Lou