How do bypass shocks in the rear give you more travel?

[CR Gittere]

my dudes, please don't over-generalize the answers. It makes the whole conversation a lot more challenging.


OP - you get both additional up-travel and down-travel. The length of the "shock shaft" by itself doesn't matter. unless you somehow designed a shock in which the shaft could poke out of the top of the shock body, the main limiting factor is the way the factory shocks are mounted. Ford has to consider the packaging of the truck, as well as cost and margin. They make concessions and iterative improvements to placate enthusiasts.

My truck has a bypass rack. I have Deaver +3HDs. I have stock length, custom shackles. ( these provide no additional travel by themselves. they just move more freely than stock shackles.) I have traction bars. My truck cycles a hair over 21". it is smack dab in the middle at 10.5" of up and 10.5" of down. Where did the travel come from? A slightly longer, progressive leaf spring, a much different upper and lower shock mount, and a longer shock to accommodate the travel.

The crazy thing is one of those iterative improvements that ford made in the gen2 raptor is the rear frame geometry. It is actually so good that going spring under might net you 2ish additional inches of up travel over spring under. Almost like they understood that the craziest enthusiasts would happily cut a couple of big holes in the bed, slap some big shocks in, and go beat the trucks. ( because that is what happened with a lot of Gen 1s.)

Now, since we're on the subject of shock mounting, it brings me to the next question: Yes, you could use the live valve shocks, get more travel and retain that functionality.

BUT, and it is a very big BUT, The suspension design would need to change to something like a cantilever to pull this off. The challenge would be that the If/Than logic in the BCM that manipulates the valving would also need to be modified for the new dynamics of the cantilever suspension. I'm not aware of an offroad company that have the r&d budget to bring that all together in a functional package, so any cantilever option you would pick would most likely come with traditional "dumb" shocks.

Thats what I said, either redesign, move mounting points of shock, all create more clearance... Thats the simple one sentence answer to a very complicated question

 

[CR Gittere]

John, here is my 2 cents, I have a 2019 and a F150 LS Powered 4 link truck. The Raptor is a good truck for mild offroading, and adventure type stuff. It is NOT a good truck for hard core off roading. It is a wonderful truck for street every day stuff mixed with MILD off road stuff. The Raptor splits these duties quite nicely, if you try and spend another 20-30k to get your Raptor more hard core offroad, you will lose much of it's street prowess and comfort. I would look at spending 20-35k and build a truck more designed for offroading... This will keep the value of your Raptor a little higher and provide more fun in the dirt

 

[zombiekiller]

Well that sounds like really good advice. I do want and need reliability so I better back down on my aspirations a bit and simplify my plan.
Thanks once again for your help

Anytime dude. Some of my vendor buddies might be a little miffed by the advice, but it's honest.

We've had a guy from Ohio bring a roush raptor on the last 2 runs. It has the fox factory 3.0s on it. Outside of that, and mods are lights and cargo carrying things. The owner has a 4 linked gen1 at home too. He brings the roush truck, which is also his daily because it is reliable.

He MOBS that truck to the point that he's keeping up with a professional racer driving a modified gen1.

The worst he's broken is two flats at the same time and an ever so slightly bent LCA that he didn't even notice until he got the truck home and was doing maintenance.

Iirc he was finally ready to do the LCA upgrade that I mentioned before after the last run.

I know he has a metric ton of fun every time he came on a run with us.

In all honesty, I'd rather see someone spend less on the truck and spend more on getting out into the dirt. I can promise you you'll have a lot more fun that way.

Good luck!

 

[MOT26]

Honest answer? Don't cut your bed up. Don't do what I did.

If the stock shocks are underwhelming, do the fox factory upgrade, do a bump stop kit, do some deavers. Get some fiberglass, run 37s and have lots and lots of fun. And that includes launching the truck off a booter here and there.


ZK - would you mind going a little deeper into how you would do it now if you had to do it all over again? What setup would you use?

I am getting close to spending north of 50K to go mid travel (SVC), 37 or maybe a 39 inch set up. I know that mid travel would be great for off road but the truck would not be very street friendly. This truck would be 80% on road and 20% off road.

So... then I thought: let's go mid travel on the front end and go 3.0 on the rear. But then I feel the truck might not be very stable with that set up. Thoughts?

Which brings me to maybe doing what you recommended.

 

[zombiekiller]

well, are you willing to sacrifice daily driving manners in exchange for the truck really killing it in the dirt? What is most important to you? turning radius or whoop eating?

As far as Mid-travel with 3.0s in the back, I don't think that setup would make you super thrilled. you'd end up doing a bypass rack and big shocks. the svc mid-travel front suspension is pretty damn capable. It will always outperform a leaf-sprung rear end.

On big whoops ( think 3-4 ft tall) , The front suspension on my truck gobbles it up.

The rear likes to kick side to side a little if the whoops are spaced the right way. Sometimes the way the whoops are spaced out kicks the ass of the truck up like a donkey and I'm staring at the dirt while strapped into the driver's seat tight.

The first time it happened, I thought the truck was going over onto its lid.

By comparison, Getting into a 3 link truck, and doing 30MPH faster than my raptor can ( yes, as it sits) felt like hopping into an offshore powerboat, getting up on plane and smashing the throttle. It was incredible.

I have no intention of doing that to my raptor. I plan to build a different truck. But guess what? My raptor is what I'll continue to bring on Baja runs because it is way more reliable than any linked truck that I've heard about, except maybe the ones that HMracing is pumping out.

For what I like doing, if I was doing it over, I would call jeff at svc and order the following:

Fox coilovers (I'd defer to SVC on the spec. I'm not sure if svc is simply ordering the fox factory setup, or if they've worked up a custom spec coilover.
SVC UCAs
svc's bump stop kit with fox 2.5 bumps.
svc baja front bumper
svc v1 rear bumper ( because Jarrett is right, the backup sensors are useless)
SVC traction bars
Deaver +3 HDs (only because I carry up to 900 lbs worth of gear in my bed while on runs. after all, If I don't have it, can't make it, and don't know where in mexico that I can buy it, someone's truck is going on a trailer and their baja adventure becomes very different.) I'd expect that most folks will prefer the regular +3s
SVC bed rack
Fox 3.5" rear shocks, either 4 or 5 tubes depending on what SVC recommended.

I'd order skids and a dif skid from foutz.

I'd regear to 4.56 and run 37s. I would also check to see if I could get an ARB for it. A selectable locker is something that I never want to be without in a desert truck. ( one that can be used at any speed.)

I'd go with Mcneil +2s all around.


You MIGHT be able to run 39s if you go +4 fenders and run a negative offset wheel, but there are a LOT of potential drawbacks to doing this. 39s are not super street-friendly. You may rub, you may eject headlights. I don't think it would be worth it to decimate the truck to fit 39s, unless you're having ground clearance issues.

I went to 40s because ever time I aired my truck out on 37s, because I like to run 18 PSI cold in the generals that I was using, I'd drag and slam the rear differential. If not for the foutz skid, I'd have cracked the center section for sure.

And yes, I like SVC. Their stuff probably has more collective baja miles on it over any other aftermarket suspension company that does raptor things. It works, they support you and they get it. ( they also race a 6100, so what they do is not all hypothetical. )

I also do like Icons kit. I've seen the OG exo crew hammer on gen1s and gen2s for 10s of thousands of miles relentlessly. It always holds up and works really well. I just wouldn't do their springs. I like deavers more.


If you got to the point where you could outdrive the truck and were on a regular basis, I'd either buy a used, linked, prerunner from someone, or I'd sell the raptor, buy a year or two old F-150, cut it in half and go full ham on building a luxo-runner.

Taking a brand new raptor farther than I'm describing only means that you don't have a V8, you insist on your truck having a raptor VIN to match the raptor looks, and that you hate money.

I'd bet that building a raptor like the deberti raptor is an easy 40-50 grand more than doing it with a new f-150. If you buy a slightly used f-150, it doesn't matter because you'd be cutting it in half, replacing all the body panels and replacing the interior too. And, because I can't leave well enough alone, I'd probably pull the motor and have it built.

so there you have it. That's what I'd do and why.

What I've learned on my gen2 adventure is, the deeper you get into heavily modifying a raptor, the more expensive it gets. The other thing is, as you spend more and more, the performance improvement per dollar spent goes WAY down.

The build that I described above is probably 25-30K on top of the raptor. At where I'm at, stopping there would have left me with about $75K left over to put towards my Luxo-runner. Once I'm through with the current "massages" to my truck, That number will look a whole lot more like 95-100ish.

And yes, I know that is stupid, dumb money to sink into a raptor, but it is my money and the truck is special for other reasons now and I won't get rid of it unless forced.

 

[John Rathjen]

ZK - expanding on your recommendations - for the shocks: 3.0 C/O in front and 3.5 ext BP in the rear, would you run this setup on a '19/'20 and disconnect the live valve setup? You think that would ultimately be a better setup than the aftermarket Fox LV shocks that only have generic 3 position adjusters?

For the Deavers SD vs. HD: what would be the cutoff weight in your opinion? I've seen anywhere from 200-500lbs in the bed. The spare tire is the same whether under or in the bed. So I'm thinking for me: 50 lbs for SVC bumpstop kit, 100lbs for retracting tonneau cover, 100lbs for chromoly bed rack and jack, and 50lbs misc. So that adds up to about 300lbs - smack dab in the middle of all the recommendations I've seen. I'd like it to ride nice on the road where 90% of my driving will be. I will tow, but a very light toy hauler - 3500lbs dry / 5000lbs loaded. I'll be using a WDH, and will drop the SVC Fox bumpstops down into the tow position when towing. Just don't want it riding stiff when I'm not towing. Worse comes to worse, I'll add a set of Fox Airshocks on the rear like another member here did, and just air them up when towing.

Lastly - I took your advice and got the 1552 TurbomacHD wheels. They are 0 offset as you know. With 37" tires and the above setup, do you think I'll need +2 bedsides? Definitely getting the front fenders, but I would forgo the bedsides if possible. Just not sure if the stock bedsides would get trashed if I got some air off a jump and bottomed the suspension.

 

[John Rathjen]

John, here is my 2 cents, I have a 2019 and a F150 LS Powered 4 link truck. The Raptor is a good truck for mild offroading, and adventure type stuff. It is NOT a good truck for hard core off roading. It is a wonderful truck for street every day stuff mixed with MILD off road stuff. The Raptor splits these duties quite nicely, if you try and spend another 20-30k to get your Raptor more hard core offroad, you will lose much of it's street prowess and comfort. I would look at spending 20-35k and build a truck more designed for offroading... This will keep the value of your Raptor a little higher and provide more fun in the dirt

CR - I think you're right. Gonna follow the advice here and keep it mild

 

[zombiekiller]

ZK - expanding on your recommendations - for the shocks: 3.0 C/O in front and 3.5 ext BP in the rear, would you run this setup on a '19/'20 and disconnect the live valve setup? You think that would ultimately be a better setup than the aftermarket Fox LV shocks that only have generic 3 position adjusters?

For the Deavers SD vs. HD: what would be the cutoff weight in your opinion? I've seen anywhere from 200-500lbs in the bed. The spare tire is the same whether under or in the bed. So I'm thinking for me: 50 lbs for SVC bumpstop kit, 100lbs for retracting tonneau cover, 100lbs for chromoly bed rack and jack, and 50lbs misc. So that adds up to about 300lbs - smack dab in the middle of all the recommendations I've seen. I'd like it to ride nice on the road where 90% of my driving will be. I will tow, but a very light toy hauler - 3500lbs dry / 5000lbs loaded. I'll be using a WDH, and will drop the SVC Fox bumpstops down into the tow position when towing. Just don't want it riding stiff when I'm not towing. Worse comes to worse, I'll add a set of Fox Airshocks on the rear like another member here did, and just air them up when towing.

Lastly - I took your advice and got the 1552 TurbomacHD wheels. They are 0 offset as you know. With 37" tires and the above setup, do you think I'll need +2 bedsides? Definitely getting the front fenders, but I would forgo the bedsides if possible. Just not sure if the stock bedsides would get trashed if I got some air off a jump and bottomed the suspension.

I can't pretend to know how the new live shock upgrade shocks are. I haven't messed with them and have not been in a truck equipped with them.

I think your decision point might come down to "do I want to cut holes for big shocks in the bed, or not?"

For me, I understand the manual shocks and there are a ton of suspension tuning pros like KDM that can tune them perfectly, so that's how I'd go. I also honestly not a fan of the way the live valves were implemented. They specifically made it near impossible to use a separate, piggyback shock controller, which is lame.

Ok, on your truck bed weight math...

your tonneau will come off any time you're heading to the desert if you want it to look nice and lock how it should any other time. In all honesty, if you go 3.5s and cut holes in the bed, the tonneau becomes the excuse to not have to mess with the locks on your jack and your spare and whatever else you keep in the bed. Dirt and water will get into the bed with gaping holes for the shocks.

Are you going to carry 1 spare or 2?

I think that you're a little light on the rack/jack combo, but those aren't the bits that would push you over the edge.

If you plan to carry a full set of tools, and a big cooler on top of what you listed, then go hit some whoops, I'd go HD. Granted I carry a ton of stuff, and most people think I'm crazy for it, I did wear out a set of standard +3 deavers within 4 hard runs totaling a little over 4K dirt miles. I should have gone HDs from the jump, but my truck also changed drastically between when i did the initial leaf springs and where my truck is now. ( I never planned to go this far with my truck)

If you don't think that you'd mind a little firmer completely empty, unloaded without a spare, I'd go with the HDs.


with deavers HDs and the option to lower your bump cans to help, you definitely won't need air shocks towing 5K.

the folks that generally complain about HDs being too stiff, also don't have adjustable shocks. Once your suspension is dialed in by a pro, you won't feel any harshness.


I know that I'm repeating myself but PLEASE, don't take what I'd do and blindly do it. Think about what's right for you. I have the benefit of kicking around town in a different vehicle. I'm used to my raptor sitting in someone's shop, in pieces, for months at a time. I'm a pretty lucky dude. I totally get that a lot of y'all also have to daily your truck.

If I was daily driving my truck, there is no damn way that I'd have cut the bed all up.

Oh and as far as leaving the bed alone, you might have to trim a little, but as long as you are cool with the wider in the front look, you dont absolutely have to do bedsides. if you look up clockton on this board, you'll see a silver midtravel raptor that is running stock bedsides. I've been on 2 or 3 runs with him. He drives the hell out of that truck. If they work for him, they'll work just fine for you. He's running 0/0 wheels too.

 

[Peterb]

what a great thread

 

[John Rathjen]

I guess I'll just need to wait until the new Fox LV come out and read some reviews on them. Tough decision.

I could always go with the 3.0 ext BP shocks which can mount in the stock location and not have to cut the bed. Honestly I'm starting to have a hard time thinking the Fox LV shocks are gonna be better than a properly tuned bypass setup.

Yea the reason for the tonneau cover is to keep all the goodies locked up. Daily driving I would have the weight of the spare (just one, laid down, to fit under the tonneau cover), bump stop kit, bed rack, jack mount, Builtright mounts, and obviously the tonneau cover. So yea maybe 300lbs "empty" without the jack, tools, cooler,etc. HDs are probably the right choice then.

I appreciate your advice. This is new territory for me. I'm trying to avoid spending thousands of dollars, then discovering I should have gone a totally different direction.

good news on the bedsides. That’s major surgery I can hopefully avoid!!