How do bypass shocks in the rear give you more travel?

[John Rathjen]

I'm guessing it's either the stock shocks bottom out to quickly, or they top out too quickly - or maybe a little of both? Obviously a longer shock will have more shaft travel - just wondering if the bypass setup allows more droop, or if it allows more up-travel.

Is there any way to get more travel using the stock live valve shocks? Kinda don't want to disconnect that whole system if possible. External bypass seems the way to go for the rear, but it would be nice to utilize the live valves also - kinda like what Camburg is doing for the front with their new LT setup - an ext bypass alongside a live valve shock

 

[Fordraptorrrrrrrr]

Bypass shocks inherently dont give more travel by design.

You can not gain anymore travel with the stock shocks without spending big $.

The travel numbers of a shock dont necessarily give a system more travel. I've seen cantilever setups with short travel shocks get travel #'s that would blow your mind. It's all in how the suspension system is setup. It's not as cut and dry as you would think it is.

 

[CR Gittere]

By pass shocks do not create more travel more clearance or a redesign does..

 

[zombiekiller]

Bypass shocks inherently dont give more travel by design.

You can not gain anymore travel with the stock shocks without spending big $.

The travel numbers of a shock dont necessarily give a system more travel. I've seen cantilever setups with short travel shocks get travel #'s that would blow your mind. It's all in how the suspension system is setup. It's not as cut and dry as you would think it is.

By pass shocks do not create more travel more clearance or a redesign does..

my dudes, please don't over-generalize the answers. It makes the whole conversation a lot more challenging.


OP - you get both additional up-travel and down-travel. The length of the "shock shaft" by itself doesn't matter. unless you somehow designed a shock in which the shaft could poke out of the top of the shock body, the main limiting factor is the way the factory shocks are mounted. Ford has to consider the packaging of the truck, as well as cost and margin. They make concessions and iterative improvements to placate enthusiasts.

My truck has a bypass rack. I have Deaver +3HDs. I have stock length, custom shackles. ( these provide no additional travel by themselves. they just move more freely than stock shackles.) I have traction bars. My truck cycles a hair over 21". it is smack dab in the middle at 10.5" of up and 10.5" of down. Where did the travel come from? A slightly longer, progressive leaf spring, a much different upper and lower shock mount, and a longer shock to accommodate the travel.

The crazy thing is one of those iterative improvements that ford made in the gen2 raptor is the rear frame geometry. It is actually so good that going spring under might net you 2ish additional inches of up travel over spring under. Almost like they understood that the craziest enthusiasts would happily cut a couple of big holes in the bed, slap some big shocks in, and go beat the trucks. ( because that is what happened with a lot of Gen 1s.)

Now, since we're on the subject of shock mounting, it brings me to the next question: Yes, you could use the live valve shocks, get more travel and retain that functionality.

BUT, and it is a very big BUT, The suspension design would need to change to something like a cantilever to pull this off. The challenge would be that the If/Than logic in the BCM that manipulates the valving would also need to be modified for the new dynamics of the cantilever suspension. I'm not aware of an offroad company that have the r&d budget to bring that all together in a functional package, so any cantilever option you would pick would most likely come with traditional "dumb" shocks.

 

[Fordraptorrrrrrrr]

my dudes, please don't over-generalize the answers. It makes the whole conversation a lot more challenging.


OP - you get both additional up-travel and down-travel. The length of the "shock shaft" by itself doesn't matter. unless you somehow designed a shock in which the shaft could poke out of the top of the shock body, the main limiting factor is the way the factory shocks are mounted. Ford has to consider the packaging of the truck, as well as cost and margin. They make concessions and iterative improvements to placate enthusiasts.

My truck has a bypass rack. I have Deaver +3HDs. I have stock length, custom shackles. ( these provide no additional travel by themselves. they just move more freely than stock shackles.) I have traction bars. My truck cycles a hair over 21". it is smack dab in the middle at 10.5" of up and 10.5" of down. Where did the travel come from? A slightly longer, progressive leaf spring, a much different upper and lower shock mount, and a longer shock to accommodate the travel.

The crazy thing is one of those iterative improvements that ford made in the gen2 raptor is the rear frame geometry. It is actually so good that going spring under might net you 2ish additional inches of up travel over spring under. Almost like they understood that the craziest enthusiasts would happily cut a couple of big holes in the bed, slap some big shocks in, and go beat the trucks. ( because that is what happened with a lot of Gen 1s.)

Now, since we're on the subject of shock mounting, it brings me to the next question: Yes, you could use the live valve shocks, get more travel and retain that functionality.

BUT, and it is a very big BUT, The suspension design would need to change to something like a cantilever to pull this off. The challenge would be that the If/Than logic in the BCM that manipulates the valving would also need to be modified for the new dynamics of the cantilever suspension. I'm not aware of an offroad company that have the r&d budget to bring that all together in a functional package, so any cantilever option you would pick would most likely come with traditional "dumb" shocks.

Smh....so many guys in this site dont know much, I was explaining how things work. From what I can tell you havent been into desert trucks all that long either right?

 

[zombiekiller]

Smh....so many guys in this site dont know much, I was explaining how things work. From what I can tell you havent been into desert trucks all that long either right?

dude, I'm not knocking you. I'm saying being that general kinda confuses things.
I got into serious offroading around the time walker evans debuted "the peanut". (2002ish)

This is my 3rd prerunner but is by far the most capable go-fast truck that I've owned. Before this is was rock crawlers and fast road course cars.

I'm just sharing what I've learned. I don't claim to know everything. I just take the time to learn from the folks I've met. Shit, the trail mechanic from the ExO run in June taught me how to start a truck with a rock. And then in November, he won the Baja 1000 in class 7. Compared to that dude, I know absolutely nothing.

 

[John Rathjen]

ZK let me ask you this. I totally get going to a 4.0 ext bypass in the rear with a bypass rack setup is gonna be the best setup. But I’ll have to use a live valve eliminator which I believe disables even the front LV function. So In the front I guess I’d just replace the stock LV coil overs with a standard 3.0 internal bypass coil over.
So here’s the main question - would that setup be so much better it would be worth losing the whole live valve functionality, or would the best bet be to keep the LV system and just replace the stock shocks with the new Fox Factory Live Valve shocks coming out soon?
Obviously the Fox Factory LV shocks don’t have near the adjustability of an ext bypass shock. What do u think? Those new Fox LV shocks only have “dum” generic adjusters for overall dampening, nothing specific like being able to adjust compression and rebound separately

Oh - and when I was talking to a guy at Fox, I asked if they or anyone would be writing a “tune” to modify how the shocks were controlled by the BCM like you mentioned. He said they weren’t, and didn’t think anyone else would be either

 

[John Rathjen]

CR - I totally understand that bypass shocks don’t in and of themselves increase travel. I understand that’s the use of longer shocks, with longer travel themselves that allow for extra wheel travel. Obviously you have to change the mounting configuration to use them.
I should have worded my question better. Maybe asking for the stock suspension, what causes the limits of travel. It’s sounding like the springs would allow a bit more themselves, but the limiting factor is the available travel and mounting of the shocks themselves

 

[zombiekiller]

ZK let me ask you this. I totally get going to a 4.0 ext bypass in the rear with a bypass rack setup is gonna be the best setup. But I’ll have to use a live valve eliminator which I believe disables even the front LV function. So I’m the front I guess I’d just replace the stock LV coil overs with a standard 3.0 internal bypass coil over.
So here’s the main question - would that setup be so much better it would be worth losing the whole live valve functionality, or would the best bet be to keep the LV system and just replace the stock shocks with the new Fox Factory Live Valve shocks coming out soon?
Obviously the Fox Factory LV shocks don’t have near the adjustability of an ext bypass shock. What do u think?

Honest answer? Don't cut your bed up. Don't do what I did.

If the stock shocks are underwhelming, do the fox factory upgrade, do a bump stop kit, do some deavers. Get some fiberglass, run 37s and have lots and lots of fun. And that includes launching the truck off a booter here and there.

I fix trucks for people on runs to Baja. The more modified the truck, the more likely it is to break. Any raptor with stock width suspension will tell you when you're about to *** it up. Once you get into bypass racks and mid-travel and 3 link or 4 link territory, the margin for error is smaller, you're going way faster and faster = more broken parts because you're pushing.

The guys that have a simple shock upgrade, some upper arms, deavers, bump stops and skidplates have the most fun, break the least and guess what? we all end up in the same place at the end of each day. The modified trucks are usually the LAST ones rolling in because it takes longer to fix the spendy shit.

If I did it over again, I'd have done exactly what I'm recommending. With the money that I'd have saved, I'd have been able to pick up a used, full-blown Luxo-prerunner in addition to my raptor for when I really wanted to go fast-fast.

But, I'm here now and my truck has sentimental value. It isn't going anywhere. I will say this: I have stupid money into my truck. And I'm putting more into now because it is TOO capable to not have a cage and a fire suppression system and brakes designed to stop 40s.

Now that I've gotten comfortable in a mid-travel truck and am becoming a much better driver, If you do mid-travel and you can drive, you need a cage to minimize risk and be safe. \
''''''''
Once the cage goes in, it kinda can't be a daily driver anymore. at least not without risking splitting your head on a cage or being annoyed by always putting 5 point harnesses on.

So If you want to drive your truck like a street truck, but also have a lot of fun in the dirt without falling down a rabbit hole, Do what I recommended. Everyone will choose their own adventure and I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do. Just sharing what I've learned and how I'd play it if I had it to do over.

edit: And don't forget that If you still want for more Shock up front, ADD and a few other companies make stock width lower control arms that will allow you to run a bypass up front in addition to the coilover. You could also get a little bit more travel with extended shackles, but they do have some caveats.

 

[John Rathjen]

Well that sounds like really good advice. I do want and need reliability so I better back down on my aspirations a bit and simplify my plan.
Thanks once again for your help