HOLY ****! AWFUL TRAGIC NEWS - At Least 8 Killed Tonight at Lucerne Valley Race!

[MarkT]

:agree: with bstoner

and I have to add one more comment...

:soapbox:

Desert Racing is one of the last freedoms in my opinion... and that includes watching them. You are free to park anywhere around the course and watch the action. Does anyone really need officials or ropes to tell them being close to the course is dangerous? But after a tragedy like this we often look to the "officials" and ask "how did you let this happen? Why didn't you protect us?"

(I'm not picking on anyone here... I include myself in the "we" group as I have done the same)

What happened to taking personal responsibility for our actions?

Is it any wonder we find ourselves fighting to keep our freedoms?

Nobody deserved to die or be injured at this fun event. It is truly a tragedy that will affect many lives and my heart goes out to all of them.

(Mods, feel free to delete this post if I broke the "no politics" rule)

 

[SVTRay]

I'm new to the offroad scene, what is it you can and can't say about people running on to a track during a race event?

 

[MagicMtnDan]

:agree: with bstoner

and I have to add one more comment...

:soapbox:

Desert Racing is one of the last freedoms in my opinion... and that includes watching them. You are free to park anywhere around the course and watch the action. Does anyone really need officials or ropes to tell them being close to the course is dangerous? But after a tragedy like this we often look to the "officials" and ask "how did you let this happen? Why didn't you protect us?"

(I'm not picking on anyone here... I include myself in the "we" group as I have done the same)

What happened to taking personal responsibility for our actions?

Is it any wonder we find ourselves fighting to keep our freedoms?

Nobody deserved to die or be injured at this fun event. It is truly a tragedy that will affect many lives and my heart goes out to all of them.

(Mods, feel free to delete this post if I broke the "no politics" rule)

Great post Mark - right on target.

I don't know what came first - a sense of entitlement or lawyers. But there's so many of both that our freedoms and personal responsibility look, sadly, to be things of the past.

I sure am glad Brian and Kyle are OK. Anyone heard from AII Raciing?

 

[Falcon]

Horrific events. Here is a telling video, especially the last half where they interview Dave Conklin, a offroad magazine photographer.

http://video-cdn.abcnews.com/100815_gma_accident.mp4

I am so thankful that Brian and Kyle weren't there yet.

Good commentary Mark.

Desert Racing is one of the last freedoms in my opinion... and that includes watching them. You are free to park anywhere around the course and watch the action. Does anyone really need officials or ropes to tell them being close to the course is dangerous? But after a tragedy like this we often look to the "officials" and ask "how did you let this happen? Why didn't you protect us?"

(I'm not picking on anyone here... I include myself in the "we" group as I have done the same)

What happened to taking personal responsibility for our actions?

Is it any wonder we find ourselves fighting to keep our freedoms?

Nobody deserved to die or be injured at this fun event. It is truly a tragedy that will affect many lives and my heart goes out to all of them.

I totally agree with your assesment, Freedom does include the freedom to do stupid things. Tragic, without a doubt... but everyone there was there of their own free will. It scares me to death to be that close to jumps, I just don't do it and I cringe everytime I see video of people standing too close to the action. The start of "Born in Baja" with people standing right on the course terrified me. If all goes well, then it is definitely the best seat in the house. But should a tie rod break, or some other mechanical failure occur, there is absolutely zero chance for a driver to react. Similar crashes resulted in the driver getting 15 years in prison... I wonder what will happen here. The crowd tried to stone the guy, but was it his fault? Maybe. Was he under the influence? I doubt it. If they can prove culpability, as in he was high or drunk then he should be punished. But many times drivers are castigated and sent to prision just to appease the survivors. When, as Mark says... Personal responsibility is all about choices and consequences.

It will be telling to see if there are lawsuits against the organizers and Race Team of the crashed truck. It's California... any bets?

My heart goes out to all the victims families... but also the driver and his family. Something tells me his life is about to be destroyed in a **** of vengeance tort proceedings.

Falcon

 

[SVTRay]

It will be telling to see if there are lawsuits against the organizers and Race Team of the crashed truck. It's California... any bets?

Yes sir, I'll be amazed if they don't.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Of course there will be lawsuits. There are no minimum requirements (or penalties) for filing and one doesn't even need a lawyer to file a lawsuit.

With that many lives so tragically ended and the lives of the survivors also affected, there will undoubtedly be multiple lawsuits against anyone and everyone somehow associated with the race. Nowadays people EXPECT to make money from tragedies. Personal responsibility is rarely considered especially when lawyers are involved.

 

[MarkT]

I'm new to the offroad scene, what is it you can and can't say about people running on to a track during a race event?

I don't think the comments bstoner made are specifically about the "off road scene"... this could have been an accident or one of countless other tragedies where... let's use the phrase "poor judgment" ... was a factor on the part of those hurt or killed. The comments he made would still apply...

 

[Falcon]

Of course there will be lawsuits. There are no minimum requirements (or penalties) for filing and one doesn't even need a lawyer to file a lawsuit.

With that many lives so tragically ended and the lives of the survivors also affected, there will undoubtedly be multiple lawsuits against anyone and everyone somehow associated with the race. Nowadays people EXPECT to make money from tragedies. Personal responsibility is rarely considered especially when lawyers are involved.

And therein, lies the problem with our tort system.

CONSENT is a crucial part of Tort Defense:

Typically, one cannot hold another liable in tort for actions to which one has consented. This is frequently summarized by the phrase "volenti non fit injuria" (Latin: "to a willing person, no injury is done" or "no injury is done to a person who consents"). It operates when the claimant either expressly or implicitly consents to the risk of loss or damage. For example, if a spectator at an ice hockey match (or Road Rally, in this case) is injured when a player strikes the puck in the ordinary course of play, causing it to fly out of the rink and hit him or her, this is a foreseeable event and spectators are assumed to accept that risk of injury when buying a ticket. A slightly more limited defense may arise where the defendant has been given a warning, whether expressly to the claimant or by a public notice, sign or otherwise, that there is a danger of injury. The extent to which defendants can rely on notices to exclude or limit liability varies from country to country. This is an issue of policy as to whether (prospective) defendants should not only warn of a known danger, but also take active steps to fence the site and take other reasonable precautions to prevent the known danger from befalling those foreseen to be at risk. [Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort#Etymology]

Not to delve too deeply into political discussion in this thread, so suffice it to say that it is up to the judge to decide whether a tort claim is valid or not. Ask yourself this question... how would a Liberal judge see this issue, as opposed to how a Conservative judge would view it.

Personal Responsibility. Hobson's choice. Freedom without accountability is not Freedom at all.

Falcon


P.S. "Hobson's Choice" refers to the U.S.S. Hobson, not the innkeeper with the horses.

"Neptunus Lex" http://tinyurl.com/29zv69f

Hyman Rickover, the father of our nuclear Navy, had this to say about responsibility:

“Responsibility is a unique concept. It can only reside and inhere in a single individual. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. You may disclaim it, but you cannot divest yourself of it. Even if you do not recognize it or admit its presence, you cannot escape it. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion or ignorance or passing the blame can pass the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.”​

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[bstoner59]

I was referencing the thoughtless dribble on the other thread with my response...not directed toward you Ray. I agree with Mark that this is one of our last freedoms and it is a risky spectator sport. Aside from trucks crashing you have the potential to get hurt from flying debris and anything else that may happen. I think the majority of the spectators understand the risk going in but you don't really comprehend it until you see the aftermath up close and personal. I hiatus keep seeing the "lost" look in the face of a deceased man's loved one and the pain that all those that witnessed the event...

That being said I still believe its up to us as individuals to make our own decisions in life. Should there be warnings and constant reminders of tragedies like this....of course!!! But to limit the freedoms of individuals by law makers is against everything this country was founded on. When I saw a Federal Agent last night at the scene I automatically start thinking about how the government is going to get involved and what damage is going to be done because of it...its too bad.

I would just like to thank you all for the respect and compassion you have show the individuals involved. I am beyond grateful I did not have to experience this horrific accident firsthand...

 

[MagicMtnDan]

Of course the questions have already started and there's already mention of the sport possibly not surviving this tragic accident. Wait until the politicians weigh in on this and attack this "defenseless" sport and recreation activity. California Senators Boxer and Feinstein have been working their entire careers to block off thousands of square miles of what should be public desert lands to keep it from being traveled by anything more than pedestrians.

Here's part of an article posted on the NY Times' website (I have added bolding to some text):

Joaquin Zubieta, a spokesman for the California Highway Patrol, said there were more than 1,000 people at the race.

Beyond racing, millions of people like to take off-road vehicles — specially adapted trucks, cars and motorcycles — over desert and other natural terrain. In California, there are more than 1 million people who have purchased “green stickers,” essentially licenses that allow them to drive vehicles over rough terrain.

California is one of only a few states that permit desert racing — some races are allowed in Nevada and Arizona — and only a few locations can hold the events. In the Mojave, Mr. Nosala said, a half-dozen races are held a year, often at night to avoid blistering daytime temperatures.

Off-road racing has been growing in popularity and become a testing ground for manufacturers of S.U.V.’s, trucks and other vehicles. In a flagging economy, many families have found taking a car or truck fitted for the bumps and dips of rough terrain a cheap form of vacation.

There have been deaths and injuries of bystanders at other off-road races, like the Baja 1000 in Mexico and the Dakar Rally, the world’s longest off-road event, covering more than 6,000 miles through Chile and Argentina. The Dakar Rally, which was held in Africa for two decades, is one of the most heavily watched sports events in the world.

The 40-year-old sport has been attacked in the past by some environmental groups, who say it endangers animal and plant species like the desert tortoise, the Mojave ground squirrel and the kangaroo rat, but advocates argue that other forces like suburban development are a bigger threat to those species.

In 1994, Mr. Nosala said, President Bill Clinton signed an act barring most of the American desert from being used for races.

Mr. Nosala said that the sport has adopted an increasing number of safety rules, requiring drivers to have certified helmets and fire suits, for example.

“If our sport even survives this incident, it will be under heavy scrutiny and more tightly managed and there are going to be some measures taken,” he predicted.

You can read the entire article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/us/16offroad.html?src=mv