Gen. 1 owners please reply !

[gwpfan]

Maybe something go confused with going in and out of so many modes?

I've used HDC a bunch of times, it doesn't last long if you have a long hill, but it works pretty well. If you know you have a lot of braking I would not use HDC except in more technical spots because it really does create a lot of heat in a hurry - icy, uneven terrain, muddy/slippery corners.

On your 20 minute wait for the brakes to cool off did you turn off the truck? How about a module reset by pulling the battery for 10 + minutes?

Not sure of you off road ability but I am yet amazed how many times I get behind people and watch them ride their brakes, or they speed up to get thru some small section only to have to slow down again via brakes. The other thing I see them do is ride too closely behind the vehicle in front of them, also causing excessive brake usage. Not saying you rode your brakes, but keep that in mind next time to conserve your brakes. 4 Lo and T/H would be your best bet, possibly along with Off Road Mode (only say off road mode as it force the engine to run to a higher RPM before shifting), but if you were in first it does sound odd. With being in first I am not too sure how ORM nor T/H would help out as there's no downshifting at that point to assist. Personally I am not a fan of off road mode, to me the truck acts like it just wants to take off, so for long and/or steep downhill situations I've normally just done 4 Lo.

Good thread overall, brakes and brake fluid comments.
http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f5/brake-upgrade-20562/index2.html#post351240

 

[Snowsled]

Just to affirm that you are not crazy, and there probably isn't anything "wrong" with your truck, my recently acquired 2010 does pretty much the same types of things on the trails you were on. I live in the area and have been running those roads for 20+ years in all manner of 4wd vehicles. The Raptor doesn't give you decent engine braking in 4Lo locked in first gear until just over 3000 rpm. That is WAY to fast for most of these roads. I tried the hill descent and honestly, it is the best I have ever used. Easy to set the speed, much smoother than running the brakes yourself but the system overheated on me on a fairly short section leaving me with a soft brake pedal. We also stopped and did a cool down before proceeding.

I also experienced the "cruise control" feature of the electronic throttle on the trail. It would hold ~2000 rpm for several hundred yards with my foot off the pedal in a pretty repeatable manner.

I will say that besides the desire to race downhill, the systems on the Raptor are far better than the ones that came on my '15 Power Wagon. The throttle control there was awful, really really awful. It would actually cycle the throttle plate, letting rpm rise 1500-2000 rpm then shut it down dropping the same rpm under the engine braking I wanted all along... anyway, it could be a LOT worse, trust me on that.

I would assume that the reason the truck does this is because the throttle plate is not closing completely, something potentially "tunable" I would think. Does the pedal commander fix this?

 

[beadblaster]

I have a 2011 and it does the same thing. To me it almost seems that the torque converter is locking up and the unlocking when it gets to a certain rpm.

 

[WHAMMYBAR66]

Thank you so much for your reply that lets me know I am not alone on this and that my truck is not technically broken !! Thank you so much !

 

[WHAMMYBAR66]

I have a 2011 and it does the same thing. To me it almost seems that the torque converter is locking up and the unlocking when it gets to a certain rpm.

I think this is a good thought and good input..

In my mind if the converter unlocks and the truck's forward speed increases due to that I am not sure the engine RPM would increase as crisply at this does.. I envision it kind of coasting forward in that case.. but that is just me theorizing.. I don't really know factually.

Thank you for the input on this. I appreciate it.

 

[WHAMMYBAR66]

Just to affirm that you are not crazy, and there probably isn't anything "wrong" with your truck, my recently acquired 2010 does pretty much the same types of things on the trails you were on. I live in the area and have been running those roads for 20+ years in all manner of 4wd vehicles. The Raptor doesn't give you decent engine braking in 4Lo locked in first gear until just over 3000 rpm. That is WAY to fast for most of these roads. I tried the hill descent and honestly, it is the best I have ever used. Easy to set the speed, much smoother than running the brakes yourself but the system overheated on me on a fairly short section leaving me with a soft brake pedal. We also stopped and did a cool down before proceeding.

I also experienced the "cruise control" feature of the electronic throttle on the trail. It would hold ~2000 rpm for several hundred yards with my foot off the pedal in a pretty repeatable manner.

I will say that besides the desire to race downhill, the systems on the Raptor are far better than the ones that came on my '15 Power Wagon. The throttle control there was awful, really really awful. It would actually cycle the throttle plate, letting rpm rise 1500-2000 rpm then shut it down dropping the same rpm under the engine braking I wanted all along... anyway, it could be a LOT worse, trust me on that.

I would assume that the reason the truck does this is because the throttle plate is not closing completely, something potentially "tunable" I would think. Does the pedal commander fix this?

Thank you so much for your reply that lets me know I am not alone on this and that my truck is not technically broken !! Thank you so much !

I experienced a little of that "cruise control" action too.

I am hoping that we can find a tuner that can address these issues... my truck totally dominated the mountain driving. I mean.. it was a true pleasure to hit those trails... coming down on both days was not fun.. it was stressful and dangerous... it turned moments of one of the best vacations I have ever taken into CRAPOLA.. LOL

 

[WHAMMYBAR66]

Maybe something go confused with going in and out of so many modes?

I've used HDC a bunch of times, it doesn't last long if you have a long hill, but it works pretty well. If you know you have a lot of braking I would not use HDC except in more technical spots because it really does create a lot of heat in a hurry - icy, uneven terrain, muddy/slippery corners.

On your 20 minute wait for the brakes to cool off did you turn off the truck? How about a module reset by pulling the battery for 10 + minutes?

Not sure of you off road ability but I am yet amazed how many times I get behind people and watch them ride their brakes, or they speed up to get thru some small section only to have to slow down again via brakes. The other thing I see them do is ride too closely behind the vehicle in front of them, also causing excessive brake usage. Not saying you rode your brakes, but keep that in mind next time to conserve your brakes. 4 Lo and T/H would be your best bet, possibly along with Off Road Mode (only say off road mode as it force the engine to run to a higher RPM before shifting), but if you were in first it does sound odd. With being in first I am not too sure how ORM nor T/H would help out as there's no downshifting at that point to assist. Personally I am not a fan of off road mode, to me the truck acts like it just wants to take off, so for long and/or steep downhill situations I've normally just done 4 Lo.

Good thread overall, brakes and brake fluid comments.
http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f5/brake-upgrade-20562/index2.html#post351240

Thank you for the input !

We stopped many times for all sorts of things,, pics, bathroom, lunch, general gawking at the beautiful scenery..

The truck was shut off and restarted many times throughout the days and please keep in mind that we hit the trails 2 days in a row and the truck behaved exactly the same both days..

The effectiveness of different modes could be debated from different angles. However, when this was happening we were on several different trails over 2 separate days. Each day was about a 7-8 hour stint on the trail.. so this down hill problem presented itself on a whole lot of scary steep mountain passes/trails. Since this hell went on for quite awhile, I tried every combination out of desperation in hopes I would hit on one that would give me a true "crawl" mode.. but had zero luck. I did in fact have to ride the brakes.. if I didn't we would have hit the trucks in front of us or went off the trail and totaled the truck. We were on some very curvy trails with drop offs of several hundred feet at times right outside my door.

I don't follow too closely to start with,, we weren't in any kind of a hurry and I left 8-10 truck lengths between my truck and my buddy in front of us... but when your truck is in 4 low, your foot off the accel pedal and the truck revs to 3k RPM allowing the truck to go way too fast for the trail.. you close that gap pretty quick.. so you gotta slow it down somehow...

Once the problem escalated to the point that I feared we may not stop, I let the truck in front of me get completely out of sight before proceeding.. without brake assist the truck went too fast on the downhill and would have left the safe path without applying the brakes... it was so frustrating..

No doubt a programming issue that Ford did not realize.. I mean.. they tested the heck out of the truck in the desert... not in the mountains.. LOL

Thank you for taking the time to put in your thoughts on this.

 

[Snowsled]

I am pretty confident that this is a throttle programming issue, not a torque convertor issue. First, I do not think the convertor is programmed to ever lock in first gear. Second, if the throttle is closed, you are going downhill, you should hit the convertors stall speed by 2000 rpm and there should be decent engine braking at that point.

I would LOVE to tune this behavior out as well. I love the truck but those trails are my regular stomping grounds and I fully intend to run the truck up there a lot.

 

[gwpfan]

So while I didn't test 4 Low, I tested this in both my 14 and 17, in 4 Hi. In the 14, I would experience a up to 2K RPM engine brake and then it would let loose and go down to approx 1.2K RPM and then start engine braking again. I had it is manual 1.
In my 17' it ran it a whole lot smoother, 1st gear in that was almost too slow, but it handled it much, much better. Granted though that too had 10 spds. vs 6 and 1st gear is so low that even when in rock crawl mode it'll run in 2nd.

 

[WHAMMYBAR66]

Trying to find a tune to fix this !!

Everyone,

Thanks again for everyone's input.

I am trying to find a tuner that will attempt to address this.. but I don't hink it will be that easy.

Tunes are about making money (nothing wrong with that!) and the 2 companies I have talked with on this have never attempted to address it.. probably because nobody ever pointed it out. Horsepower, Torque and Shifting Points are their main stage. They have never even attempted to get a bead on this problem.. and I understand why.. most Raptor owners will never experience this dangerous problem.

I contacted SVC and JDM engineering. To my understanding, both of these companies have very good reputations and sell tunes with custom adjustments after the fact to get your truck just right... which is what I figure this is going to take.

Phil @ JDM said "Our tunes completely change the shifting parameters and pressures and are very good for towing as well so it would definitely make a big improvement."

I replied with -
"Phil,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I am extremely serious about purchasing a tune from your company, but I must be 100% sure that this particular concern would be addressed with it.

I would ask that you please, please review the posts on the thread I started here -

http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f39/gen-1-owners-please-reply-56338/.

I think that if you can say without a doubt that your tune addresses this DANGEROUS problem, you may sell 3 or 4 of the tunes as several other raptor owners have stated they have the same problem and are looking for a solution. We are estimating that only a tune will address it.

Certainly every company that makes tunes goes after shift points and timing... but it appears that your staff may have enough expertise to pin point the issue myself and several other owners are experiencing.

Thank you very much for your time and effort.

I sincerely hope you can find a solution !"


I have not received any other information since then.. and I totally understand if I don't .. There may be a tone of work that would have to go into fixing this..

SVC replied with -

Hey Jeff,

A lot to take in. I am not sure if our tune will help or not to be honest. The 2010 pcm an be a nightmare to work with. (I Own one myself). We can always give it a shot if it works awesome if not we look at other custom options.

Thanks,

Jeffrey Thompson

Director Of Sales


It was excellent that SVC would at least consider trying to help.. but I am not sure of any outcome without purchasing their tune and crossing my fingers...

If anyone else is looking for a tuner to fix this, please take the above information into account if you talk to SVC or JDM.. maybe if they see more than one person interested in purchasing a repair they would engineer a tune for this.

I should probably point out very clearly that I am not saying or implying anything negative about either of these companies. I feel they have replied back to me with proper information. Heck, If I am lucky one of them will contact me soon saying that my concern drove them crazy enough that they worked to fix it and want to sell me that tune !!

I just wanted the rest of you to know what my personal progress is with my Raptor Problem.

My hope is that the rest of you that are experiencing this concern are also trying to get it fixed and that one of us will WIN and share it here.

I plan on hitting mountain trails next Summer again.

PLEASE.. I don't want to have to sell and buy a Jeep..