Drove a Gen 2 for the first time - Pros and Cons

[TomDirt]

.... getting fixed next week. but a pair of nikes are faster than my gen 1 at the moment

I know the feeling.

 

[Old-Raptor-guy]

I've read two owners with 2020's that had issues with their cam phasers. Supposedly the later 2020 trucks were manufactured using the new cam phasers. As to where to draw that line when Ford started doing that, I'm not sure. I haven't heard of any 3rd gen owners who have experienced issues with their cam phasers so if you were inclined on getting a 3rd gen for the sake of "value" that would be something to consider as well. The 3rd gen also comes with a revamped mid pipe section using the trombone design which seems to be very pleasing for most owners. I'm waiting for my trombone for my 2020 to come in the mail as we speak

The updated/redesigned phasers went into production vehicles built on and after December 1st 2019. I just did phasers on a 2020 but November 20th 2019 and it had the original design, failed at 88k.
Since model year change is normally in September that make about 2 1/2 months of production that are 2020 model year with older phaser design.

 

[Old-Raptor-guy]

Cam phasers information. If the Raptor you are looking at did have phasers installed they aren’t the old ones especially given it’s a 19. Your poss buy would have 20+ updated phasers installed.

That is not really true. There was a huge stock pile of phasers AND with the Covid shortages FORD was forced to use them.

In the past when I did work at a dealer and parts were revised/updated the old part numbers would be sent back up the supply chain in what I always assumed to be disposed of.

As much bad press as Ford has gotten I do believe under normal circumstances they would have done the same with the phasers, but given the shortages and vehicles would potentially be down for years

(try and buy an intake manifold for a 5.0 F150 in the past 2 years, we had a truck down for 10 months and when replacement arrived it was defective, she is driving it but check engine light is on, replacement is expected in about 12 more months)

Ford had to do something, my local dealer still has 14 of the original part # on his shelf (I won't buy them).

 

[TomDirt]

That's disappointing that a company that big, with a century of experience, couldn't just put the call out to all those domestic shops with cnc capabilities and FIX THIS. Unless they are really bad at paying vendors, or there's nobody still doing machining, or the raw material isn't available, wtf?

 

[Old-Raptor-guy]

That's disappointing that a company that big, with a century of experience, couldn't just put the call out to all those domestic shops with cnc capabilities and FIX THIS. Unless they are really bad at paying vendors, or there's nobody still doing machining, or the raw material isn't available, wtf?

Where you living in a cave from mid-2021 to mid 2023?

It is easy (and I am not saying you are wrong) to sit back and judge.

I'll tell you the story I know of the 2.7 ecoboost oil pan.
the Gen 1 2.7 is 2015-2017, slight changes made in Gen2 which is 2018+.

I had a 2.7 in my shop that needed an oil pan. We waited 15 months. At one point there were over 14,000 on back order nationwide.

The 2015-2017 oil pan is different in some way from the 2018+ version (more on that later)

In my discussions to try and find my customer an oil pan, here are some things I was told.

Ford engine representative that visits me about 2 times a year said he was told that the machine that makes the older version of the pan had broken down and that parts were not obtainable to repair it in foreseeable future.

I did talk to a couple aftermarket suppliers to see about tooling up, because the demand seemed there.

Two of them told me that they had looked into and it wasn't feasible. The machine was over 2 million dollars, would take 2-3 years to obtain, and then there would have to be 6+ months of durability testing to make sure the product was GTG.

By that time the demand would have faded.

The oil pan on the 2.7 is some how integrated in the PCV system, and as such is considered and emissions component by the Government. The difference between the Gen 1 pan and the Gen 2 pan has something to do with PCV operation.

In the end Ford obtained EPA approval to put the 2018+ oil pan on the -2017 engines BUT it requires valve cover replacement on both cylinder heads to have correct PCV operation, and at that point FORD issued a TSB.

With valve cover replacement, the cost of oil pan replacement on a 2015-2017 more than doubled.

My understanding is EPA approval took just under 6 months.

 

[TomDirt]

Blah blah blah.
Musk figures out a workaround for stuff like this on the daily. If FoMoCo cannot pivot from their "let's have a meeting about this" to Tesla's proven ability to adapt and overcome challenges, including creating new methods and materials, they are done. While the big 3 still create cars by pounding out hundreds of different parts and then welding or fastening them together, the Gigapress machine can inject molten aluminum and spit out almost half of the car in about 75 seconds.

 

[Old-Raptor-guy]

Blah blah blah.
Musk figures out a workaround for stuff like this on the daily. If FoMoCo cannot pivot from their "let's have a meeting about this" to Tesla's proven ability to adapt and overcome challenges, including creating new methods and materials, they are done. While the big 3 still create cars by pounding out hundreds of different parts and then welding or fastening them together, the Gigapress machine can inject molten aluminum and spit out almost half of the car in about 75 seconds.

Even the Gigapress has limits.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-retreats-next-generation-gigacasting-manufacturing-process-2024-05-01/

 

[Old-Raptor-guy]

Blah blah blah.
Musk figures out a workaround for stuff like this on the daily. If FoMoCo cannot pivot from their "let's have a meeting about this" to Tesla's proven ability to adapt and overcome challenges, including creating new methods and materials, they are done. While the big 3 still create cars by pounding out hundreds of different parts and then welding or fastening them together, the Gigapress machine can inject molten aluminum and spit out almost half of the car in about 75 seconds.

Also, have you heard the horror stories of getting Tesla's repaired.
Manufacturing something and then servicing the product after are two different things.

 

[TomDirt]

Manufacturing something and then servicing the product after are two different things.

You mean like dealing with Ford to fix your F-150 cam phasers, right? I'm pretty sure that the Gigapress will get sorted out before the UAW union is. And, it will never go on strike and halt production, like auto workers have done for decades.

Years ago, there was a photo released of auto workers hanging out in the parking lot during a break, and it was clear they didn't care enough to hide the fact they were drinking beers and smoking pot before returning to build cars. As someone who was never allowed to get drunk and smoke pot at work, and actually drove one of their cars, that turned me against them.

Today, none of our brightest young engineers are graduating with plans to join FoMoCo and be one of the faceless ants in the Big Machine; they all end up at places like Tesla instead.

 

[FordTechOne]

You mean like dealing with Ford to fix your F-150 cam phasers, right? I'm pretty sure that the Gigapress will get sorted out before the UAW union is. And, it will never go on strike and halt production, like auto workers have done for decades.

Cam phasers have been fixed for half a decade now. It’s ridiculous to continue to even bring it up.

Tesla designs for cost savings and assembly. Not for service. Which is why they’re a nightmare to work on and are often totaled after a minor fender bender. In other words, they’re disposable vehicles.

Tesla doesn’t follow rules and it continues to come back to bite them. You also need to understand that non-EV only automakers are at the mercy of the EPA. You can’t just “figure out a solution” when you require approval from the federal government. Musk is a con artist on his best day, that’s not a role model to look up to.

Years ago, there was a photo released of auto workers hanging out in the parking lot during a break, and it was clear they didn't care enough to hide the fact they were drinking beers and smoking pot before returning to build cars. As someone who was never allowed to get drunk and smoke pot at work, and actually drove one of their cars, that turned me against them.

Likely anti-union propaganda. Having been to assembly plants there is no indication of anything like that going on, nor would it be tolerated. The workers are regular people just like any other job.

Today, none of our brightest young engineers are graduating with plans to join FoMoCo and be one of the faceless ants in the Big Machine; they all end up at places like Tesla instead.

So they can get impregnated by Muskrat, berated, embarrassed, and then laid off for no reason with no notice, then have their severance pay suspended? That’s the company people want to work for?