California E85 on Stock Gen2 (is it a FFV)?

[Donovan]

What does running e85 do for you folks who want it?

Legit question, I don't understand the benefit.

 

[ayoustin]

The main benefits of ethanol are its higher octane and (more importantly) its superior latent heat of vaporization. Pretty much what that means is it's better able to cool the air charge and cylinder temps in the engine. Cooler air charge means higher oxygen content which means more power.

Also it burns cleaner than gasoline and is more environmentally friendly to produce.

Downsides are it has a lower energy density so more of it is needed to make the same amount of power vs gasoline, which means fuel economy goes down a bit, though usually it's so cheap that there's still something of a savings benefit vs 87 octane gas (while having higher octane than 93).


Lots of people freak out of about ethanol destroying fuel systems that aren't rated for it. It can cause certain types of rubber to swell. This is not really true for any modern vehicle. Anything made in the past 20 years or so won't be damaged by ethanol. Don't confuse that with methanol. Methanol will destroy any factory fuel system in a short amount of time.

Some people notice deposits or worse, clogging in their fuel system after running ethanol. This is not good but it's not something caused from ethanol itself, this is usually from 1 of 2 things:

1. Ethanol causes varnish and other deposits from gasoline to loosen up inside the fuel system that had otherwise just been attached to a surface in the fuel system.
2. The ethanol was purchased from a low quality station, meaning the station is keeping the ethanol in an old tank and the tank is filled with deposits from other previous fuels.
​

What I always tell people who are considering switching over to ethanol, alternate fuel types for the first month or so to keep large deposits from becoming dislodged all at once, or run a fuel system cleaner prior to running exclusively ethanol. And buy ethanol from large chain stations, don't buy ethanol from smaller gas stations. The regulations on ethanol are much less stringent than gasoline, hence why the percentage of ethanol in E85 can vary from 51% to 83% at the pump so you're more likely to get good quality ethanol that's deposit free from a more reputable fuel company.

 

[Donovan]

Thanks for that!

 

[Dan Deinek]

Good old article on this.. i don't see the advantage for the small savings per gallon.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0801-e85-ethanol-alternative-fuel/

 

[GordoJay]

... is more environmentally friendly to produce.

Not if it's made from corn. Sugar cane is a small win. Net fossil fuel usage increases when you account for fertilizing, raising, and transporting the corn. But it keeps the corn farmers in Iowa happy, and Iowa has the first primary in the US. What, me, cynical? You bet.

 

[ayoustin]

Not if it's made from corn. Sugar cane is a small win. Net fossil fuel usage increases when you account for fertilizing, raising, and transporting the corn. But it keeps the corn farmers in Iowa happy, and Iowa has the first primary in the US. What, me, cynical? You bet.

Most of the ethanol in the US is made from bio waste and switchgrass. Neither are as efficient as sugar cane but that needs a particular climate to grow and mature. Corn's yield of ethanol is actually pretty bad, but it's one of the first forms used to create ethanol which is why you see corn so much on labels etc.

I wrote a pretty lengthy research paper on ethanol and its viability a few years ago. Long story short is it's pretty much a break even fuel right now. It'd have much more positive gains if we had the infrastructure and commitment to use it more widespread as well as if manufacturers designed engines around it instead of gasoline. The biggest thing it has going for it vs other forms of fuel is it requires the least amount of work to adapt our current infrastructure to support it.

 

[GordoJay]

Most of the ethanol in the US is made from bio waste and switchgrass...

This information is hard to find. The best I've found so far shows that in 2017, the US produced 10M gallons of cellulosic ethanol. The Federal mandate for cellulosic ethanol production for the year was 5,500M gallons, which we missed. Total ethanol production in 2017 was 15,936M gallons. So, in 2017, cellulosic ethanol was 0.063% of US ethanol production. In my book, that doesn't qualify as "most". I eagerly await the data supporting your comment. I'm serious. I really want to know where to find good data. If I was cynical, I'd say that interested parties are hiding it.

 

[Smokyray]

I wrote a pretty lengthy research paper on ethanol and its viability a few years ago. Long story short is it's pretty much a break even fuel right now. It'd have around it instead of gasoline. The biggest thing it has going for it vs other forms of fuel is it requires the least amount of work to adapt our current infrastructure to support it.

Sadly many of us "old dudes" remember the days at the pump "BE" (before ethanol)Tetraethyl Lead additives and catalytic converters. I suppose "Ethanol Averse" would not be far from the mark.
The Federal Government mandated Ethanol into automobile fuel as a subsidy for corn production and sold it as energy, efficiency and lower emissions. Living in SD when the change took place the Corn Council was big on pushing 100% Ethanol fuels until E85 became a reality there before it hit the US mainstream market. Interestingly enough (as several independent reports show and my Corn Council neighbor's info) it's none of the above.
Here in TX, (Thank God) non ethanol automobile fuel is still available to consumers at selective stations that can be found on
https://www.pure-gas.org/

I've run my own experimental data in my V6 Tacoma with mileage and performance and found my gas mileage(as mentioned above), power output and oil sample cleanliness, as well as spark plug deposits were improved over a 7500 mile test of "non ethanol only" gasoline vs the standard 15% additive most stations offer. Engine cylinder volumetric efficiency notwithstanding.

Say what you will but my Raptor runs real nice on the 93 octane NE fuel ....
V/R
Smokey

 

[COBB Tuning]

A lot of good info already posted, but one more thing that is valuable to know: flex fuel =/= running E85.

A true flex fuel vehicle will be able to detect and adjust engine operation for varying percentages of ethanol found in the gas tank, either through the use of an ethanol content sensor or through sensor-less software on the ECU that infers ethanol content based on fuel trims (feedback from the O2 sensors) and sometimes also inferred octane (feedback from knock sensors). The reason why this is so important has to do with the fuel chemistry differences between normal pump gas and ethanol - most importantly the difference in stoichiometric AFR. On top of this, lower percentage ethanol blends will have lower knock thresholds and will require less ignition timing advance than would be allowable on higher percentages. Since (as was previously mentioned in this thread) ethanol content of "E85" can legally vary between 51% and 85% ethanol by volume, it is extremely valuable for the ECU to know as accurately as possible the exact percentage of ethanol in the fuel system.

The challenge for the aftermarket is integrating a way to measure ethanol content of the fuel into the stock ECU and wiring harness. Usually (if not always), a vehicle manufacturer will not leave unused portions of the wiring harness just lying around the engine bay that can return data back to the ECU. So, the aftermarket has to get creative with a way to get an ethanol content sensor signal back to the ECU. Sometimes, you can substitute an ECA in place of a low-impact sensor already on the vehicle - this is how Cobb integrates the ECA into our Subaru flex fuel systems by hijacking the harness input that is factory designated for the TGV position sensors. In other applications there aren't any easy or low-impact substitutions, so other solutions are required - this drove the development of our CAN Gateway module for the R35 GTR platform that sandwiches into the main engine harness to add a CAN-based ECA (and other configurable sensor data) into the stock wiring harness.

What solution will pan out to be best for the Raptor/F150 platform is still unclear, but it's definitely a long term goal for us as a company. The use of a sensor-less system definitely has its appeal to avoid the implementation challenges described above, but tends to have a significantly larger margin of error in terms of inferred vs. actual ethanol content - not great when trying to extract the most safe power out of your engine.

In the short term, for those looking to take advantage of the power benefits and low fuel costs of ethanol, here is what I recommend (and am doing with my personal vehicle): buy a "standalone" ethanol content sensor from a company like Fuel-It that uses bluetooth to communicate with your phone. Then, work with your tuner to develop a few calibrations to switch between based on the measured ethanol content shown by that sensor. Our software can easily be used to generate calibrations for E10, E20, E30, E40, E50, etc., with as much resolution of ethanol content as you may want. If you fill up with a half tank of "E85", and your ethanol content sensor shows that the final ethanol content passing through the fuel lines is 48%, you can quickly reflash to your E50 map. If the sensor reports 33%, you can flash to the E30 map; etc. With short 30-60 second flashes with the Accessport, the bluetooth ethanol sensor, and quality calibrations from your tuner, you can effectively make your truck into a flex fuel vehicle right now. Hopefully in the future, we can make things even easier.

Hope this helps to clarify some of the ethanol lingo!

 

[ayoustin]

This information is hard to find. The best I've found so far shows that in 2017, the US produced 10M gallons of cellulosic ethanol. The Federal mandate for cellulosic ethanol production for the year was 5,500M gallons, which we missed. Total ethanol production in 2017 was 15,936M gallons. So, in 2017, cellulosic ethanol was 0.063% of US ethanol production. In my book, that doesn't qualify as "most". I eagerly await the data supporting your comment. I'm serious. I really want to know where to find good data. If I was cynical, I'd say that interested parties are hiding it.

I stand corrected. It's been a while since I've looked back at this stuff, but I had written that it was projected for there to be a large swing in ethanol production from corn and soy to switchgrass and certain reed based plants over the past 5 years. It seems that push hasn't made the progress that was hoped for.

Sadly many of us "old dudes" remember the days at the pump "BE" (before ethanol)Tetraethyl Lead additives and catalytic converters. I suppose "Ethanol Averse" would not be far from the mark.
The Federal Government mandated Ethanol into automobile fuel as a subsidy for corn production and sold it as energy, efficiency and lower emissions. Living in SD when the change took place the Corn Council was big on pushing 100% Ethanol fuels until E85 became a reality there before it hit the US mainstream market. Interestingly enough (as several independent reports show and my Corn Council neighbor's info) it's none of the above.
Here in TX, (Thank God) non ethanol automobile fuel is still available to consumers at selective stations that can be found on
https://www.pure-gas.org/

I've run my own experimental data in my V6 Tacoma with mileage and performance and found my gas mileage(as mentioned above), power output and oil sample cleanliness, as well as spark plug deposits were improved over a 7500 mile test of "non ethanol only" gasoline vs the standard 15% additive most stations offer. Engine cylinder volumetric efficiency notwithstanding.

Say what you will but my Raptor runs real nice on the 93 octane NE fuel ....
V/R
Smokey

Haha I suppose you might also remember all the cars that lose valve seats when they took lead additives out of fuel.

As for ethanol, it's pretty much a wash on emissions and fuel economy. That's were the innovation (which hasn't really happened on large scale) is supposed to come in. More efficient production processes make the fuel easier and cheaper to produce. Engine designs with alcohol based fuels as the intended fuel to burn would have fuel economy similar to that of a gasoline engine. As it stands right now, ethanol is a fuel that can supplement gasoline, to be run as efficiently as gasoline it has to have a properly designed combustion chamber, properly designed piston crowns, proper heat range spark plugs, correct injection geometries etc. There's a lot that goes into this stuff, and unfortunately OEMs just aren't willing sacrifice some profit to develop an ethanol focused engine.

A lot of good info already posted, but one more thing that is valuable to know: flex fuel =/= running E85.

A true flex fuel vehicle will be able to detect and adjust engine operation for varying percentages of ethanol found in the gas tank, either through the use of an ethanol content sensor or through sensor-less software on the ECU that infers ethanol content based on fuel trims (feedback from the O2 sensors) and sometimes also inferred octane (feedback from knock sensors). The reason why this is so important has to do with the fuel chemistry differences between normal pump gas and ethanol - most importantly the difference in stoichiometric AFR. On top of this, lower percentage ethanol blends will have lower knock thresholds and will require less ignition timing advance than would be allowable on higher percentages. Since (as was previously mentioned in this thread) ethanol content of "E85" can legally vary between 51% and 85% ethanol by volume, it is extremely valuable for the ECU to know as accurately as possible the exact percentage of ethanol in the fuel system.

The challenge for the aftermarket is integrating a way to measure ethanol content of the fuel into the stock ECU and wiring harness. Usually (if not always), a vehicle manufacturer will not leave unused portions of the wiring harness just lying around the engine bay that can return data back to the ECU. So, the aftermarket has to get creative with a way to get an ethanol content sensor signal back to the ECU. Sometimes, you can substitute an ECA in place of a low-impact sensor already on the vehicle - this is how Cobb integrates the ECA into our Subaru flex fuel systems by hijacking the harness input that is factory designated for the TGV position sensors. In other applications there aren't any easy or low-impact substitutions, so other solutions are required - this drove the development of our CAN Gateway module for the R35 GTR platform that sandwiches into the main engine harness to add a CAN-based ECA (and other configurable sensor data) into the stock wiring harness.

What solution will pan out to be best for the Raptor/F150 platform is still unclear, but it's definitely a long term goal for us as a company. The use of a sensor-less system definitely has its appeal to avoid the implementation challenges described above, but tends to have a significantly larger margin of error in terms of inferred vs. actual ethanol content - not great when trying to extract the most safe power out of your engine.

In the short term, for those looking to take advantage of the power benefits and low fuel costs of ethanol, here is what I recommend (and am doing with my personal vehicle): buy a "standalone" ethanol content sensor from a company like Fuel-It that uses bluetooth to communicate with your phone. Then, work with your tuner to develop a few calibrations to switch between based on the measured ethanol content shown by that sensor. Our software can easily be used to generate calibrations for E10, E20, E30, E40, E50, etc., with as much resolution of ethanol content as you may want. If you fill up with a half tank of "E85", and your ethanol content sensor shows that the final ethanol content passing through the fuel lines is 48%, you can quickly reflash to your E50 map. If the sensor reports 33%, you can flash to the E30 map; etc. With short 30-60 second flashes with the Accessport, the bluetooth ethanol sensor, and quality calibrations from your tuner, you can effectively make your truck into a flex fuel vehicle right now. Hopefully in the future, we can make things even easier.

Hope this helps to clarify some of the ethanol lingo!

I know that the development processors for the 3.5EB use inferred ethanol content from fuel trims. As to how accurate they are, I have no idea. But if it's within 5% then I'd say that's plenty good enough for 99.9% of owners. I don't know if they kept that logic in the production processors or the limitations to how wide of a range of ethanol it can account for but that's how the engine was developed.

Alternatively, if that doesn't pan out, I'm sure there's something in the engine bay we can use that has a 0-5V signal. It's enough to make a module that can convert the 50-150hz signal coming from the sensor into a 0-5V signal that the processor sees. The harder part (in my mind) would be getting the logic in the processor to use that signal to adjust fueling, timing and boost etc. I don't know how easy or hard Ford made it to add/alter logic in this processor.