Anyone using Water/Methanol Injection on an EB Raptor

[Jasoncor]

Make sure it’s failsafe. I blew a motor on one of my previous cars because the pump failed

 

[blk91gt]

That is the kind of stuff that worries me.

Anyone have a ballpark answer of what they gained by doing Water / **** + tune?

 

[blk91gt]

I ordered mine, waiting on al my full race stuff.

Nice! What setup will you be running?

 

[reaper1441]

The lack of understanding of e85 with tuners associated with ford trucks is appalling. One of the most popular tuners for raptors on this forum couldn't understand how a flex fuel sensor works and told me it would be 6,000$ to run a raptor on e85 safely and that e85 was too inconsistent to run. I should have walked out at that point but we were already loading a 93 tune.

Water/**** injection isn't flow regulated so its only a solution for wide open throttle. Its fine on the street but loses its appeal off road. You also need to make sure they program in a failsafe if the pump ever fails or the tank is broken. E85 is vastly superior in everyway if you can find someone who isn't an idiot to program in a flex fuel sensor.

For those of you who don't know how flex fuel and e85 work keep reading my rant. I'll probably make a dedicated thread on it later since the community as a whole seems in the dark do to complete lack of tuner competence on the subject. This will be abbreviated.

E85 is 105 octane and allows significantly more boost and timing. It also produces 30% LESS power by volume. Meaning it takes more of it to make the same power. This means less MPGS, but it also mean the engine runs significantly cooler since more is being sprayed into the combustion chamber. It also means you hit the limits of the fuel system sooner. The DI system line pressure is controlled by the ecu and can be turned up significantly. And the port injectors are just like the injectors in anything else and can easily be swapped. Nothing scary there. E85 does come out of the pump at different consistencies. E70-E90 depending on the time of the year. Factory fex fuel vehicles have an ECA. An Ethanol Content Analyzer that measures the current ethanol content. What that means is you can mix any amount of E whatever and regular gas and the ECA will calculate what amount of ethanol the mixture in your tank is. So fillup with whatever and it reads it correctly. With the information from the ECA fed into the ecu the boost, timing and fuel pressure can all be altered realtime on the fly automatically. Wiring in a factory flex fuel sensor from GM (ECA) we could ramp up boost as you started to fill the tank with ethanol. With Subaru BRZ's we could go from 8psi on pump gas to 24psi on e85(300hp to 600). GTR's we could go from 500-1000hp just because of the ability of e85. and so on and so on. E85 with an ECA is the future. Its safe, cheap, reliable and simple to tune for. But somehow the Raptor tuners ive talked too have never touched the stuff, are scared of it, don't understand how an ECA works at all. I pray Cobb comes out with their tuner soon. At least they know what to do with e85.

 

[wipit]

Nice! What setup will you be running?

Sorry been busy,

I will be running the full race kit. Compleet and methanol kit.

 

[zombiekiller]

The lack of understanding of e85 with tuners associated with ford trucks is appalling. One of the most popular tuners for raptors on this forum couldn't understand how a flex fuel sensor works and told me it would be 6,000$ to run a raptor on e85 safely and that e85 was too inconsistent to run. I should have walked out at that point but we were already loading a 93 tune.

Water/**** injection isn't flow regulated so its only a solution for wide open throttle. Its fine on the street but loses its appeal off road. You also need to make sure they program in a failsafe if the pump ever fails or the tank is broken. E85 is vastly superior in everyway if you can find someone who isn't an idiot to program in a flex fuel sensor.

For those of you who don't know how flex fuel and e85 work keep reading my rant. I'll probably make a dedicated thread on it later since the community as a whole seems in the dark do to complete lack of tuner competence on the subject. This will be abbreviated.

E85 is 105 octane and allows significantly more boost and timing. It also produces 30% LESS power by volume. Meaning it takes more of it to make the same power. This means less MPGS, but it also mean the engine runs significantly cooler since more is being sprayed into the combustion chamber. It also means you hit the limits of the fuel system sooner. The DI system line pressure is controlled by the ecu and can be turned up significantly. And the port injectors are just like the injectors in anything else and can easily be swapped. Nothing scary there. E85 does come out of the pump at different consistencies. E70-E90 depending on the time of the year. Factory fex fuel vehicles have an ECA. An Ethanol Content Analyzer that measures the current ethanol content. What that means is you can mix any amount of E whatever and regular gas and the ECA will calculate what amount of ethanol the mixture in your tank is. So fillup with whatever and it reads it correctly. With the information from the ECA fed into the ecu the boost, timing and fuel pressure can all be altered realtime on the fly automatically. Wiring in a factory flex fuel sensor from GM (ECA) we could ramp up boost as you started to fill the tank with ethanol. With Subaru BRZ's we could go from 8psi on pump gas to 24psi on e85(300hp to 600). GTR's we could go from 500-1000hp just because of the ability of e85. and so on and so on. E85 with an ECA is the future. Its safe, cheap, reliable and simple to tune for. But somehow the Raptor tuners ive talked too have never touched the stuff, are scared of it, don't understand how an ECA works at all. I pray Cobb comes out with their tuner soon. At least they know what to do with e85.

all that said, why not just order a freaking 55 gallon drum of sunoco 260 GTX to your door. You'll be at 104 octane and not need to hack a GM sensor into a truck that is much more complex than anyone thought it was at the onset.

If you search a little and make some calls, you'll end up getting it delivered for around 3.60-3.75 per gallon.

That would mean, since you need roughly 2x the fuel when running e85, your e85 cost, plus the cost of all this sensor wizardry would need to come in at an effective $1.80 per gallon, amortized over however many miles you plan to potentially drive the truck.

The juice just aint worth the squeeze.

If you are thinking you're gonna find corn fuel in the middle of nowhere (read: anywhere near the kind of expanse you need to turn the truck loose offroad), you're nuts.

I tend to believe very few have the coin to bring a chase crew with a fueling tower and 100s of gallons of the right fuel when they go out to blow off steam casually.

Hell, it is near impossible to find even 93 octane off the beaten path in Mexico. Usually, you have to settle for 85 or 87.

So again, my question would be, WHY? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[wipit]

This is how my methanol injection is set up.

 

[reaper1441]

all that said, why not just order a freaking 55 gallon drum of sunoco 260 GTX to your door. You'll be at 104 octane and not need to hack a GM sensor into a truck that is much more complex than anyone thought it was at the onset.

If you search a little and make some calls, you'll end up getting it delivered for around 3.60-3.75 per gallon.

That would mean, since you need roughly 2x the fuel when running e85, your e85 cost, plus the cost of all this sensor wizardry would need to come in at an effective $1.80 per gallon, amortized over however many miles you plan to potentially drive the truck.

The juice just aint worth the squeeze.

If you are thinking you're gonna find corn fuel in the middle of nowhere (read: anywhere near the kind of expanse you need to turn the truck loose offroad), you're nuts.

I tend to believe very few have the coin to bring a chase crew with a fueling tower and 100s of gallons of the right fuel when they go out to blow off steam casually.

Hell, it is near impossible to find even 93 octane off the beaten path in Mexico. Usually, you have to settle for 85 or 87.

So again, my question would be, WHY? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Because e85 is 1.85 a gallon and available everywhere I go and I fill my own 55g drums if I go somewhere it isn't. I can also switch back and forth in any increment at any time and it automatically adjusts. There isn't a single race fuel that you can mix and match and adjust for. Only ethanol content based fuels. If i fill up with vpc10 and then need fuel somewhere else and they only have 87 i have to drain the tank and flash a new tune. With e85 I can fill up with any amount of e85 or 87 or 93 or whatever at any time and it adjusts on the fly using an ECA wired in. Also that sensor is 1 wire at 300$ I'm also not sure how 30% somehow equalled 100% with your math.

 

[zombiekiller]

Because e85 is 1.85 a gallon and available everywhere I go and I fill my own 55g drums if I go somewhere it isn't. I can also switch back and forth in any increment at any time and it automatically adjusts. There isn't a single race fuel that you can mix and match and adjust for. Only ethanol content based fuels. If i fill up with vpc10 and then need fuel somewhere else and they only have 87 i have to drain the tank and flash a new tune. With e85 I can fill up with any amount of e85 or 87 or 93 or whatever at any time and it adjusts on the fly using an ECA wired in. Also that sensor is 1 wire at 300$ I'm also not sure how 30% somehow equalled 100% with your math.

you carry 55 gallon drums with you on trips? that is dedication, my friend!

The $300 sensor is the cheapest part of your equation. Messing with the computer to get it to accept the signal from said sensor, then ensuring that it will work with the Ford PCM in the way that you describe is where your cost (and risk) begins to skyrocket.

The rough estimate, any time that I've messed with e85 on go-fast stuff that is forced induction is closer to building fueling to support 2x the volume vs an additional 30%.

while your solution might work for pounding pavement or being within fill up distance at an e85 pump, or being able to carry enough e85 go make it back to a pump in gas cans, it would definitely NOT work for the places that I head with my truck.

I'm also not really certain of how much benefit you'd glean from all this work to just switch to e85.

it makes some sense for a race vehicle with support in place, but not really for being in the middle of nowhere, rolling solo or with a buddy.

To each their own, i guess.

 

[NASSTY]

E85 wouldn't work for me. They don't sell it in the state of Maine.