22 37p available info attached

[CINISI]

@melvimbe said it well above.
You and the other guys/girls paying ADM just want to feel better about being ripped off so you call it "this market".
We wouldnt have "this market" meaning high ADM prices if people paying these ADM prices simply wouldnt pay them.
Instead we have a bunch of people who NEED a high end pickup truck so badly they're willing to pay scalpers over the manufacturer suggested price.
It's pretty ridiculous that people try to convince or justify to others that this is the right thing to do. To be straight forward it's pretty dumb to me.
It's ok if you dont agree. It's my opinion.

 

[belacyrf]

This is not true. Many manufacturers, in toys and other product categories, strictly enforce MSRP. A retailer is not allowed to sell above or below MSRP without the manufacturer allowing it. This is why when you see BD lights on sale during Black Friday, for example, it's on sale everywhere. It's why xbox and PS5 are the same price everywhere.

And yes, this does occasionally create a secondary market when supply doesn't meet demand, and people are willing to pay more. Retailers will respond by either limiting the quantity you can purchase or out right black listing known scalpers. And of course, there are certainly people willing to buy overpriced goods that are in short supply through a secondary market.

Find me any one of those markets where the seller is 100% dependent on a single mfg and EVERY product that is being made is subject to the same conditions of low inventory. Your creating a false analogy. Dealerships have a ton of overhead and are fully dependent on a single manufacturer. Anyone who can't recognize that dealerships are hit very hard right now b/c of low inventory isn't paying attn. I personally HATE ADM.. but I understand it. And I will never begrudge a business for making money where they can, especially in tough circumstances. Thankfully I have the freedom to "choose" weather or not to do business with them.

No, not really. In recent years, the richer have gotten richer, while the middle class has not been able to keep pace with inflation. If people are buying more goods, it's because they are changing where they spend their money, unable to spend their money on services or vacations due to government restrictions.

This is not in "recent years". This has been since the beginning of time. The only thing that typically breaks wealth is catastrophe (war, acts of God, depressions, etc...) This is nothing new, it has always been and always will be. Even if you feel socialism and communism is the answer, go to a socialist or communist country and see the wealth gaps. It's been that way forever.

Poor middle class (of which I am part). We can't go on vacations as much or need to watch our spending. THIS IS LIFE. We do the best we can with what we got. But go to another country and see what their middle class looks like. We are Blessed beyond measure in this country. Stop complaining.

 

[CINISI]

You're wrong. A manufacturer cannot dictate to any retailer of any kind at what price point to sell their product to the end user. The MSRP encapsulates the estimated markup of a potential retailer, but at the retailers discretion they may reduce or increase their price point. Are you going to see Walmart sell a $499 PS5 for $899? Of course not, but that's not the model, they don't need that markup, and they don't need that press. Do you see, however, Walmart and Best Buy charging more or less than MSRP for appliances such as Ovens, Televisions et al? Absolutely. Maybe you just don't know it.

Also LMAO @ your housing market comment. Not sure if this was all a joke post, so I suppose I won't respond again.. funny stuff, but hopefully no one else took the bait.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

If a manufacturer, on its own, adopts a policy regarding a desired level of prices, the law allows the manufacturer to deal only with retailers who agree to that policy. A manufacturer also may stop dealing with a retailer that does not follow its resale price policy. That is, a manufacturer can implement a dealer policy on a "take it or leave it" basis.

 

[CINISI]

Find me any one of those markets where the seller is 100% dependent on a single mfg and EVERY product that is being made is subject to the same conditions of low inventory. Your creating a false analogy. Dealerships have a ton of overhead and are fully dependent on a single manufacturer. Anyone who can't recognize that dealerships are hit very hard right now b/c of low inventory isn't paying attn. I personally HATE ADM.. but I understand it. And I will never begrudge a business for making money where they can, especially in tough circumstances. Thankfully I have the freedom to "choose" weather or not to do business with them.

Would you like me to list all franchises?

 

[melvimbe]

You're wrong. A manufacturer cannot dictate to any retailer of any kind at what price point to sell their product to the end user. The MSRP encapsulates the estimated markup of a potential retailer, but at the retailers discretion they may reduce or increase their price point. Are you going to see Walmart sell a $499 PS5 for $899? Of course not, but that's not the model, they don't need that markup, and they don't need that press. Do you see, however, Walmart and Best Buy charging more or less than MSRP for appliances such as Ovens, Televisions et al? Absolutely. Maybe you just don't know it.

Not wrong. There are contracts involved, obviously not with every manufacturer and product, but certainly a lot of them. If the retailer sales the product at a price the manufacturer doesn't agree to, manufacturer can pull the product. It's not a coincidence that you'll see the same product discounted the same amount at every retailer on black friday. It's not because the retailers all got together and shared their discounts, it's because the manufacturer authorized the discount. And Sony may very well decide to pull PS5s off Walmart shelves if Walmart tries to sell them for $899.

But I never brought in toys and other products as comparisons for auto sales. It is a different market where different agreements are made for different reasons

Also LMAO @ your housing market comment. Not sure if this was all a joke post, so I suppose I won't respond again.. funny stuff, but hopefully no one else took the bait.

Not a joke at all. There is no MSRP for home sales. And it's not exactly a good comparison since you can't exactly go to another seller/dealer to get the exact same house. Nor does the seller need to think about return customers.

 

[melvimbe]

Find me any one of those markets where the seller is 100% dependent on a single mfg and EVERY product that is being made is subject to the same conditions of low inventory. Your creating a false analogy.

I didn't create the analogy, a different poster did. I actually was stating that auto sales are distinctly NOT like other products (toys) where there is an MSRP. And I agree that it would be problematic for a retailer who sells one product where manufacturer sets price and doesn't control inventory. But that doesn't exactly apply to dealers since they also sell used vehicles where they do set prices, as well as run a service center.

Dealerships have a ton of overhead and are fully dependent on a single manufacturer. Anyone who can't recognize that dealerships are hit very hard right now b/c of low inventory isn't paying attn. I personally HATE ADM.. but I understand it. And I will never begrudge a business for making money where they can, especially in tough circumstances. Thankfully I have the freedom to "choose" weather or not to do business with them.

That's all fine to see it that way. I also respect dealerships who are looking long term and have a policy of know ADM. I am not sure that a $5-10k on a handle of vehicles over a year's time is going to make a break a dealership. If it is, then they really should work on making used sales or the service department.

This is not in "recent years". This has been since the beginning of time. The only thing that typically breaks wealth is catastrophe (war, acts of God, depressions, etc...) This is nothing new, it has always been and always will be. Even if you feel socialism and communism is the answer, go to a socialist or communist country and see the wealth gaps. It's been that way forever.

There is a huge difference between government setting production and distribution for all automobiles and the manufacturing company setting prices for the products they produce.

Poor middle class (of which I am part). We can't go on vacations as much or need to watch our spending. THIS IS LIFE. We do the best we can with what we got. But go to another country and see what their middle class looks like. We are Blessed beyond measure in this country. Stop complaining.

I don't think I've personally been complaining. Gen 3 is too expensive and too difficult for me to acquire and I'm ok with that. I also am happy to pay below MSRP...no one ever complains about that. I'm not bothered by others complaining about ADM, and I can understand why others want the market to fully set the price. I can see the logic of a dealership charging ADM, or taking a different strategy and never going over MSRP. And on the question of whether Ford should restrict to MSRP pricing, I see positives and negatives for Ford with that.

I think these dynamics are going to evolve as customers use the internet to gain access to more sellers, or work directly with the manufacturer. Dealers will change, and manufacturers will as well.

 

[RapGen]

There’s one huge flaw in comparing something like a PS5, Xbox, or Franchise Product like a coffee or pizza/burger, compared to a Limited vehicle, like a Raptor this year. Those earlier manufacturers have made MILLIONS of PS5’s, Xbox’s, or Coffees. If there were Millions of 2021/2022 Raptors out there, would you be equally pissed if people were paying under MSRP? Probably not, but that says more about you than the people willing to pay over MSRP when they want something rare that they can afford. Supply and Demand is a real thing. If you don’t understand what the definition of the word Suggested means, well, you may want to read more rather than call people names on the internet because your are upset with your life choices…

 

[CINISI]

There’s one huge flaw in comparing something like a PS5, Xbox, or Franchise Product like a coffee or pizza/burger, compared to a Limited vehicle, like a Raptor this year. Those earlier manufacturers have made MILLIONS of PS5’s, Xbox’s, or Coffees. If there were Millions of 2021/2022 Raptors out there, would you be equally pissed if people were paying under MSRP? Probably not, but that says more about you than the people willing to pay over MSRP when they want something rare that they can afford. Supply and Demand is a real thing. If you don’t understand what the definition of the word Suggested means, well, you may want to read more rather than call people names on the internet because your are upset with your life choices…

F150 is a production line vehicle based on the best selling truck in America and the third best selling vehicle globally. It’s not a hand built Ferrari or Rolls. Was production limited because of supply and/or other issues? Of course just like everything else. There was a shortage of a brand of tortillas at one time but it still comes off a conveyor belt just like an F150.
No one is upset ..I just think it’s stupid you’re paying ADM while others pay MSRP. It’s not a need ..it’s a want and people make up reasons to why they need their want. Even to justify spending $20k over the next guy. “It’s the market” they say …no it’s your greed and stupidity sir. Good day!

 

[RapGen]

F150 is a production line vehicle based on the best selling truck in America and the third best selling vehicle globally. It’s not a hand built Ferrari or Rolls. Was production limited because of supply and/or other issues? Of course just like everything else. There was a shortage of a brand of tortillas at one time but it still comes off a conveyor belt just like an F150.
No one is upset ..I just think it’s stupid you’re paying ADM while others pay MSRP. It’s not a need ..it’s a want and people make up reasons to why they need their want. Even to justify spending $20k over the next guy. “It’s the market” they say …no it’s your greed and stupidity sir. Good day!

I didn’t pay over MSRP. Not sure how paying over MSRP makes someone greedy and stupid.

If you think the 2021 Raptor is just an F150, you are seriously uninformed. The 2021 Raptor is different down to even it’s frame. The 37 Package has it’s own frame unique from even the Standard Raptor. In fact, fewer Raptor 37 packages were built for 2021 than Ferrari’s and Rolls Royce Models. And if you want to see ADM, go check prices on the same examples you used, Ferrari’s and Rolls. Those vehicles also depreciate at MUCH higher rates than Raptors.

Why are you even here? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone so uninformed and ignorant try to justify what they can’t afford. Haters gonna Hate and Ain’ters gonna Ain’t. You sir sound more like an Ain’ter…

 

[CINISI]

I didn’t pay over MSRP. Not sure how paying over MSRP makes someone greedy and stupid.

If you think the 2021 Raptor is just an F150, you are seriously uninformed. The 2021 Raptor is different down to even it’s frame. The 37 Package has it’s own frame unique from even the Standard Raptor. In fact, fewer Raptor 37 packages were built for 2021 than Ferrari’s and Rolls Royce Models. And if you want to see ADM, go check prices on the same examples you used, Ferrari’s and Rolls. Those vehicles also depreciate at MUCH higher rates than Raptors.

Why are you even here? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone so uninformed and ignorant try to justify what they can’t afford. Haters gonna Hate and Ain’ters gonna Ain’t. You sir sound more like an Ain’ter…

It’s literally called an F150 Raptor and on the Ford build site you go to F150 to build the Raptor. It also comes down the same assembly line so it’s included in the F150 sales.

Please link me the 2021 Raptor sales numbers along side ANY Ferrari that sold more units that year.

I’ll wait.

Yeah I’m a hater. I hate stupid people who think they’re smart who end up f’ing up the system for everyone else. Mr Guy arguing about why you should pay ADM but claims not to have paid ADM. lol