2019 Shocks vs. ?

[J Money]

Today was a good day, I got my new truck in the dirt. The adaptive shocks are legit and I had all the intention of keeping this thing “stockish.”

Aside from added oil capacity, less fade and blah blah blah... anybody have feedback on 2019 shocks vs. aftermarket?

Or real world feedback on 2018 vs. 2019 shocks? Just curious if the 2019’s adaptive technology makes a material difference vs. the 2018’s.

Thanks!

 

[Kowboy17]

what was once 'aftermarket' becomes OEM, then the whole process starts over again.

 

[zombiekiller]

Today was a good day, I got my new truck in the dirt. The adaptive shocks are legit and I had all the intention of keeping this thing “stockish.”

Aside from added oil capacity, less fade and blah blah blah... anybody have feedback on 2019 shocks vs. aftermarket?

Or real world feedback on 2018 vs. 2019 shocks? Just curious if the 2019’s adaptive technology makes a material difference vs. the 2018’s.

Thanks!

I'll be honest, It takes a lot, under normal circumstances, for me to even get enough heat in my shocks for them to be operating optimally. weigh what it is you're chasing. day in day out, stock suspension would do me just fine. Going out west to baja or JV, or NV or AZ... I'm really happy that I dropped the coin to upgrade my suspension.

Now, that being said, after my first baja run with the truck, I'm pretty glad that I went a bit overboard with my suspension, because when doing 200+ dirt miles, they come in handy and i never felt any fade or a time when they were struggling. ( the only things I broke were stock parts) .

I like the concept of the active valving and it is butter on UTVs. I'd venture a solid guess that someone will bring out active valving to the aftermarket, but after lots of conversations, it is probably going to be quite a while, as the telemetry data for the factory shocks comes from the Ford BCM/PCM, not from sensors in the shocks. The adjustments are also triggered by the BCM. Being that folks like Cobb are still working out TCM/PCM tuning, and I havent seen a word about anyone focusing on R&D with fox on how to program translation to larger volume shocks, you have two choices. 1. Stick with the active valve stuff. 2. Run resistors and swap to manually adjusted shocks.

Most of the midtravel kits are using like 10 times the valving and adjustment that stock trucks ( 17,18 or 19) use and once tuned, you'd in an entirely different stratosphere.

There is no freaking way that a 19 with all the gizmos has a shot in hell of going through the same terrain, at the same speed, with the same relative comfort as my truck now.

No. Freaking. way.

where a stocker is doing 10-15 mph, I'm cruising at 40. when I'm at 80, the stocker is probably doing 40 at best. (when you're shooting for the same relative ride comfort and arent playing hero and breaking stuff.)

 

[jaz13]

I'll be honest, It takes a lot, under normal circumstances, for me to even get enough heat in my shocks for them to be operating optimally. weigh what it is you're chasing. day in day out, stock suspension would do me just fine. Going out west to baja or JV, or NV or AZ... I'm really happy that I dropped the coin to upgrade my suspension.

Now, that being said, after my first baja run with the truck, I'm pretty glad that I went a bit overboard with my suspension, because when doing 200+ dirt miles, they come in handy and i never felt any fade or a time when they were struggling. ( the only things I broke were stock parts) .

I like the concept of the active valving and it is butter on UTVs. I'd venture a solid guess that someone will bring out active valving to the aftermarket, but after lots of conversations, it is probably going to be quite a while, as the telemetry data for the factory shocks comes from the Ford BCM/PCM, not from sensors in the shocks. The adjustments are also triggered by the BCM. Being that folks like Cobb are still working out TCM/PCM tuning, and I havent seen a word about anyone focusing on R&D with fox on how to program translation to larger volume shocks, you have two choices. 1. Stick with the active valve stuff. 2. Run resistors and swap to manually adjusted shocks.

Most of the midtravel kits are using like 10 times the valving and adjustment that stock trucks ( 17,18 or 19) use and once tuned, you'd in an entirely different stratosphere.

There is no freaking way that a 19 with all the gizmos has a shot in hell of going through the same terrain, at the same speed, with the same relative comfort as my truck now.

No. Freaking. way.

where a stocker is doing 10-15 mph, I'm cruising at 40. when I'm at 80, the stocker is probably doing 40 at best. (when you're shooting for the same relative ride comfort and arent playing hero and breaking stuff.)

What you're failing to appreciate is the live shocks are dialing in a custom tune for every condition. On the street, it stiffens up to greatly reduce lean and dive. High speed offroad? Has a custom map for that too. Rock crawling, yep, got that covered. And jumping, all 13" are dialed in to do nothing but absorb the landing.

I don't have the live shocks and cannot speak from personal experience, but one FRF member reported the live shocks make a huge difference while jumping. Both a softer landing and only using half the travel on a jump that would bottom out his old Raptor with dumb shocks.

The old Fox shocks have 9 stages that try to guess what you are doing based on the stroke position and are a huge compromise because they need to cover everything with a single tune. The live shocks have a full 13" primed for exactly what you are doing in that very moment.

 

[zombiekiller]

I'll be honest, It takes a lot, under normal circumstances, for me to even get enough heat in my shocks for them to be operating optimally.

Now, that being said, after my first baja run with the truck, I'm pretty glad that I went a bit overboard with my suspension, because when doing 200+ dirt miles, they come in handy and i never felt any fade or a time when they were struggling. ( the only things I broke were stock parts) .

I like the concept of the active valving and it is butter on UTVs. I'd venture a solid guess that someone will bring out active valving to the aftermarket, but after lots of conversations, it is probably going to be quite a while, as the telemetry data for the factory shocks comes from the Ford BCM/PCM, not from sensors in the shocks. The adjustments are also triggered by the BCM. Being that folks like Cobb are still working out TCM/PCM tuning, and I havent seen a word about anyone focusing on R&D with fox on how to program translation to larger volume shocks, you have two choices. 1. Stick with the active valve stuff. 2. Run resistors and swap to manually adjusted shocks.

Most of the midtravel kits are using like 10 times the valving and adjustment that stock trucks ( 17,18 or 19) use and once tuned, you'd in an entirely different stratosphere.

There is no freaking way that a 19 with all the gizmos has a shot in hell of going through the same terrain, at the same speed, with the same relative comfort as my truck now.

No. Freaking. way.

where a stocker is doing 10-15 mph, I'm cruising at 40. when I'm at 80, the stocker is probably doing 40 at best. (when you're shooting for the same relative ride comfort and arent playing hero and breaking stuff.)

What you're failing to appreciate is the live shocks are dialing in a custom tune for every condition. On the street, it stiffens up to greatly reduce lean and dive. High speed offroad? Has a custom map for that too. Rock crawling, yep, got that covered. And jumping, all 13" are dialed in to do nothing but absorb the landing.

I don't have the live shocks and cannot speak from personal experience, but one FRF member reported the live shocks make a huge difference while jumping. Both a softer landing and only using half the travel on a jump that would bottom out his old Raptor with dumb shocks.

The old Fox shocks have 9 stages that try to guess what you are doing based on the stroke position and are a huge compromise because they need to cover everything with a single tune. The live shocks have a full 13" primed for exactly what you are doing in that very moment.

oh I'm not "missing" anything. I have been dabbling with patenting the right kind of sensors to create a piggyback system for ANY vehicle. The R&D lead time to design, prototype, spec, adjust, tune, produce, then validate will be years.

No computer controlled 3.0 shock will be able to remotely keep up with a tuned suspension package that has 35% more travel and 1000% more fluid volume, unless the bigger suspension kit is not tuned for the vehicle.

I've ridden in UTVs with the adaptive shocks, I've ridden in a 19 raptor with the live shocks. I agree that they make a tangible difference. If you hit the offroad parks every now and again, or stick to mostly flat, fast trails I dont see a need to change them out.

Now if you are going to go do 250+ miles per day in dirt, want to jam through 2-3 foot whoops all day, and beat on your truck... They just arent in the same league as a midtravel kit, bypass rack, tons more travel/fluid volume, etc.

Hell, with my kings I already regret not getting the QA knobs. (at $75 x 20, I decided to skip them on the front end, but when my shocks get serviced this summer, I'm having them added.)

If I want to go jump the hell out of my truck, all i need to do is twist my front rebound adjustment all the way Up, tighten the jam nut and send it. That isnt too much of a hassle for me.

 

[rtmozingo]

oh I'm not "missing" anything. I have been dabbling with patenting the right kind of sensors to create a piggyback system for ANY vehicle. The R&D lead time to design, prototype, spec, adjust, tune, produce, then validate will be years.

No computer controlled 3.0 shock will be able to remotely keep up with a tuned suspension package that has 35% more travel and 1000% more fluid volume, unless the bigger suspension kit is not tuned for the vehicle.

I've ridden in UTVs with the adaptive shocks, I've ridden in a 19 raptor with the live shocks. I agree that they make a tangible difference. If you hit the offroad parks every now and again, or stick to mostly flat, fast trails I dont see a need to change them out.

Now if you are going to go do 250+ miles per day in dirt, want to jam through 2-3 foot whoops all day, and beat on your truck... They just arent in the same league as a midtravel kit, bypass rack, tons more travel/fluid volume, etc.

Hell, with my kings I already regret not getting the QA knobs. (at $75 x 20, I decided to skip them on the front end, but when my shocks get serviced this summer, I'm having them added.)

If I want to go jump the hell out of my truck, all i need to do is twist my front rebound adjustment all the way Up, tighten the jam nut and send it. That isnt too much of a hassle for me.

I'm very interested for you to go more in depth on this. Obviously the stock shocks are very good for what they are, but they must be jack-of-all-trades and they are very clearly an entry-level shock.

With that said, how much performance gain do you feel the Fox Live valve adds? Handling aside, do you think that the adjustment allows for more capability, as in the truck can be pushed harder, or do you think the truck just handles better at the limits? Or a slight mixture, with the better handling giving quicker response time to impacts, allowing for moderately increased paces due to less rebound time? The stock shock's weakest point seems to be how quickly they bottom out on hard landings, followed by overzealous rebound causing bucking. The Live Valve very obviously helps with this, but does that effectively increase the severity of hits it can take?

I don't think anyone would argue the aftermarket shocks will do much better when it comes to shock fade. While I've run my truck at a reasonable rate in the Texas sun all day, I've not experienced fade - but the Cobb guys say their stockers definitely faded on them over the course of a day at Rally Ready, and you can clearly see it in the video.

That said, while it is somewhat obvious a bigger diameter shock is going to do better vs a smaller one, I am curious as to how much this really helps. After all, you still have to adjust them, and if you tune for the whoops you won't do as well in the jumps, and so on. Would you say it is best to adjust for an 'average' of what you are encountering, and that the increased damping makes up for the difference, allowing for noticeably higher speeds?

I ask this because I've ridden in trucks with Icon 3.0s, and watched videos of guys running Fox 3.0s and Kings on the same courses (same day) I've run. They still struggled with some of the hits that I did, so that overall they didn't seem to be a huge improvement over the stockers.

I've noticed that the stockers seems pretty picky on speed - there's a certain range you gotta be in for them to be happy, and I've seen them take some nasty stuff at high speeds, but you gotta commit. The aftermarket 3.0s seem much less dependent on this, allowing you to hit stuff at whatever speed you want, which is obviously an advantage, but I'm curious as to if the main difference is resistance to shock fade.

 

[zombiekiller]

I'm very interested for you to go more in depth on this. Obviously the stock shocks are very good for what they are, but they must be jack-of-all-trades and they are very clearly an entry-level shock.

With that said, how much performance gain do you feel the Fox Live valve adds? Handling aside, do you think that the adjustment allows for more capability, as in the truck can be pushed harder, or do you think the truck just handles better at the limits? Or a slight mixture, with the better handling giving quicker response time to impacts, allowing for moderately increased paces due to less rebound time? The stock shock's weakest point seems to be how quickly they bottom out on hard landings, followed by overzealous rebound causing bucking. The Live Valve very obviously helps with this, but does that effectively increase the severity of hits it can take?

I don't think anyone would argue the aftermarket shocks will do much better when it comes to shock fade. While I've run my truck at a reasonable rate in the Texas sun all day, I've not experienced fade - but the Cobb guys say their stockers definitely faded on them over the course of a day at Rally Ready, and you can clearly see it in the video.

That said, while it is somewhat obvious a bigger diameter shock is going to do better vs a smaller one, I am curious as to how much this really helps. After all, you still have to adjust them, and if you tune for the whoops you won't do as well in the jumps, and so on. Would you say it is best to adjust for an 'average' of what you are encountering, and that the increased damping makes up for the difference, allowing for noticeably higher speeds?

I ask this because I've ridden in trucks with Icon 3.0s, and watched videos of guys running Fox 3.0s and Kings on the same courses (same day) I've run. They still struggled with some of the hits that I did, so that overall they didn't seem to be a huge improvement over the stockers.

I've noticed that the stockers seems pretty picky on speed - there's a certain range you gotta be in for them to be happy, and I've seen them take some nasty stuff at high speeds, but you gotta commit. The aftermarket 3.0s seem much less dependent on this, allowing you to hit stuff at whatever speed you want, which is obviously an advantage, but I'm curious as to if the main difference is resistance to shock fade.

There are a shit ton of variables for all the situations you just threw out there.

So, for the average person, with all those variables, I'd actually lean towards the live valve shocks. The juice aint worth the squeeze and you probably aint heading to baja to run 450 miles in a day through the dirt.

Now for a real answer.

My truck has been set up to run whoops in a desert setting. in this case, you want the truck to be soft in big stuff and you want the wheels to move and float, almost like a skipping stone on a lake surface.

Now, with my rebound set as it is, If I go try to huck my truck 10 feet in the air, I'm not going to blow through my compression like there isn't anything there, but I am going to hit my bump stops ( probably go through the bump stops too, but wouldn't break anything) but I'd bet I'll get a few bounces on the exit. The truck won't be hurt and it wont break my back, but it will be a little jarring and the change in my center console is gonna flop around, fall through cracks and annoy me me for the next 20K miles.

With a little bit of tube turning, I could take that jump and have the truck be soft as can be on landing and not bounce once, and thus, my change would stay right where I left it and my sanity would be saved.

The challenge is, adjustments have to be made to cater to one scenario or the other since the requirements are so different.

Understanding this is important when considering that with a fully built suspension unless your terrain is always similar with no big constant differences, you're going to make a concession on the oddity scenarios. ( i.e. it will never take EVERYTHING perfectly).

With the live-valve possibilities, the shocks CAN make changes in real time and react. So you do have the ability to have a computer understand that you need a ton of rebound instantly, and you have a pretty instant reaction time which makes the shocks better all around, as they are able to constantly adjust.

The one caveat is, these active valve shocks are only one size right now, so if you are going too hard, or need more travel, you cant actually increase fluid volume of shock stroke.

So now onto a mid-travel, bypass rack truck like mine...

I cant tune real time. I can't even tune without using a wrench and an Allen key.

BUT, my truck can be set up and tuned by someone that knows what they're doing better than a computer in the desert.

My suspension can be set up for more miles and very little jumping, for terrain like Johnson valley or Baja.

YES, there will be anomalies like jumps that my set up is not ideally tuned for.

BUT, The big secret is, with my truck not set up for jumping, it still takes the air time better than the fox live valve shocks, even though the foxs are tuned perfectly by that computer for what is happening.

The front factory coilover has about 50% less fluid volume than my coilover. The factory shock has a bit of a valving advantage. My truck also has an additional shock that has about 3x the fluid volume of the factory coilover alone. I also have a bunch more valving, and 4 more bypasses ( 3 compression, 1 rebound). So front suspension-wise, I've got 4X the fluid volume and 3X the valving.

On the rear, I've got 250% the valving and 4X the fluid volume, plus an extra 6 or so inches of travel, progressive leafs, and hydraulic bump stops.

So, yeah, my truck has a real advantage on fade, "holding up" and control.

even when "out of the perfect zone" my suspension can provide a better cushion and better control based on the physics advantage alone.

That being said, I'm ready to trade up tomorrow to have working, deep-learning/machine-learning, SCU-controlled, gyroscope-enabled "Smart" suspension on shocks and coilovers that are the same size and type as what is on my truck now.

So Ahem @FOX Shocks, I'm ready to switch from king, whenever youre ready for me to test things out for ya. Heading back to baja in June. (HINT HINT)

 

[rtmozingo]

So Ahem @FOX Shocks, I'm ready to switch from king, whenever youre ready for me to test things out for ya. Heading back to baja in June. (HINT HINT)

Thanks for the reply, that answers my question and matches what I thought.

I too am holding out for the Live Valve external 3.0s. I have heard some testing is being done, would be idiotic of them not to field them sooner rather than later...

 

[Loufish]

One thing to remember...the new LV shocks are still internal by pass...which of course when tuned to your style/terrain can make a hug difference...the challenge as I see it is to find a place that can make not only spring changes but internal tuning such as valve stacks AND re-tuning the factory by pass tube...
If you have a Polaris RZR S with the LV shocks, Shock Therapy are able to make those changes...On the RZR..

I have always thought after spending so much money on the price of the Raptor, Id love somebody to do the R&D on our stock shocks and be able to re-valve them away from the street compromise to more off road ability...

 

[J Money]

Ok, so in summary... 2019 Live Valve trumps 2018, I’m talking stock to stock set up. Now 2019 shocks compared to aftermarket, obviously make a difference specific to fade due to fluid volume. So theoretically the ideal scenario is the live valve technology with a shock that allows more fluid volume to prevent fade. I would have to argue (no disrespect) that irrespective of bypass tubes the Live Valves would yield more than the 250% increase in valving options vs. a 4 tube bypass (also assuming there’s exponentially more valving options due to the programming). So in our Raptor dream land we’d want more fluid volume delivered by increased body size or reservoirs? This is all assuming we were talking apples to apples with stock travel numbers. I was just trying to determine if the electronic controlled valving was really as cool as it sounds keeping other variables static (travel/springs/etc).

So yes, Fox should hook us up and provide more options

In reality if I wanted to pound the shit out of something I’d just build a TTB something, or buy a 10 car/6100 for the same price. I do enjoy the AC on my ass though from the 2019.