Smart to buy 2nd Gen now?

[crouton]

Hi, I'm new here and am looking for a new truck. I posted on another forum as well and got to talk with a very nice Raptor owner, but am wondering if someone can help me with the questions I have.

I'm planning on keeping whatever truck I buy now for a pretty long time, so I'd like to figure out how reliable these trucks have been. I've read about cam phaser issues and a few transmission failures (which make me a little insecure, because it's made in collab with GM). The cam phaser issue seems to be way more common, though.
Is this still a problem in 2020? It's only covered for 2 years where I live, so I'm a little worried?

The last batch of Raptors is being sold in my area right now. I noticed they say "LOBO Raptor". Apparently they were meant for Mexico, but they were able to ship them to Europe because demand seems to be pretty high and because they were one of the last models made. Is there a big difference between Lobo and F150, or just the name? I did notice parts of the seats are cloth?

I've also read there were TSB's for leaky valve covers and seals in the turbo's (people who had smokey tailpipes after idling). Is this still an issue?

Does the back-up cam work reliably (read on this forum it works intermittendly)?

Is there a big difference in terms of driveline between this and a Limited?
The sales guy literally wanted to push me to a 3.5TT Limited immediately. He said it's better value (€20k less), and has the same 4x4 system, just less beefy components. I know absolutely nothing about Ford trucks, but I'm not sure if he was right, because he said a few things about RAM's that were wrong as well.
He said a Limited can do everything I need - mostly grass and mud, so I genuinely wondered why he said that...

I currently have a 4th gen RAM with the (more expensive) BW44-44 and it's honestly garbage off-road, which is why I decided to look for something now instead of continuing to struggle. I know (now) the Rebels had a different transfer case that was more suitable for going off-road, but he claims they're identical (not true, some trim levels just suck off-road, especially the 'fancier' ones).

Any input is greatly appreciated. If you know of anything that is known to go out on these trucks or whatever, I'd love to know (not here to bash them, I want to learn). If someone asked me about RAM's I'd be honest and tell them about all the stuff that's known to break (which is why I'm not interested in spending money on a truck with the same engine and transmission, and flaws).

Thanks a lot! I scheduled a test drive already as well, just kinda want to know what I'm looking at/for because I trust owners a lot more than a sales representative! Thank you!!!!

 

[smurfslayer]

Welcome to FRF!

he cam phaser issue seems to be way more common, though.
Is this still a problem in 2020? It's only covered for 2 years where I live, so I'm a little worried?

Nope, things have quite WAY down on the cam phaser (park) issue. It was only an issue on start up because the phaser failed to “park” properly for startup. Revised parts were released and the version in - I think late 2018, definitely 2019 and onward that addressed the problem.

I've also read there were TSB's for leaky valve covers and seals in the turbo's (people who had smokey tailpipes after idling). Is this still an issue?

I don’t think there’s any issue known on the late ’19 - ’20 models. The idling issue is common to all F150’s with the eco boost. I don’t believe it’s actually a problem.

The user to get definitive answers on these concerns is @FordTechOne . He knows these trucks inside and out and will honestly guide you if there are any pending issues.

Does the back-up cam work reliably (read on this forum it works intermittendly)?

There has been an issue with the camera system on the 2020 models, caused by a part supplier. There is a fixed part available if yours is affected.

The sales guy literally wanted to push me to a 3.5TT Limited immediately. He said it's better value (€20k less), and has the same 4x4 system, just less beefy components.

I know the engine and transmission are the same in the Platinum, and that will be faster on the street. I don’t think the limited has the same powertrain. The frame, suspension are way different on the Raptor. Not sure about the transfer case.

He said a Limited can do everything I need - mostly grass and mud, so I genuinely wondered why he said that...

The limited can do what any of us need...well, except for maybe @zombiekiller ;-)
Ford builds trucks like no other manufacturer. Sure, you can get by with a limited or Platinum, but if you wanted those trucks, you’d be on the F150 site, not the Raptor site.

Seriously, the Raptor is an incredible truck.

 

[FordTechOne]

Hi, I'm new here and am looking for a new truck. I posted on another forum as well and got to talk with a very nice Raptor owner, but am wondering if someone can help me with the questions I have.

I'm planning on keeping whatever truck I buy now for a pretty long time, so I'd like to figure out how reliable these trucks have been. I've read about cam phaser issues and a few transmission failures (which make me a little insecure, because it's made in collab with GM). The cam phaser issue seems to be way more common, though.
Is this still a problem in 2020? It's only covered for 2 years where I live, so I'm a little worried?

Hey bud, welcome to the forum and hello from the US. As @smurfslayer said, the cam phaser issues primarily affected earlier (pre-July 2018) builds, and they tended to occur at early mileage and certainly don't affect anywhere close to every engine.

The last batch of Raptors is being sold in my area right now. I noticed they say "LOBO Raptor". Apparently they were meant for Mexico, but they were able to ship them to Europe because demand seems to be pretty high and because they were one of the last models made. Is there a big difference between Lobo and F150, or just the name? I did notice parts of the seats are cloth?

I've also read there were TSB's for leaky valve covers and seals in the turbo's (people who had smokey tailpipes after idling). Is this still an issue?

Does the back-up cam work reliably (read on this forum it works intermittendly)?

LOBO is the Mexican version of the F-150. My guess would be that they're easier/cheaper to import to Belgium, hence why they seem to be more common. I'm not familiar with any of the visual or mechanical differences, just the name change. Base Raptors come with cloth seats, so that may be what you're seeing. As far as TSBs, there are none for leaking valve covers or the turbo seals. The only related TSB is for abnormal oil consumption, which instructs the dealer to replace the valve covers with the updated design and reprogram the PCM with the new software.

Is there a big difference in terms of driveline between this and a Limited?
The sales guy literally wanted to push me to a 3.5TT Limited immediately. He said it's better value (€20k less), and has the same 4x4 system, just less beefy components. I know absolutely nothing about Ford trucks, but I'm not sure if he was right, because he said a few things about RAM's that were wrong as well.
He said a Limited can do everything I need - mostly grass and mud, so I genuinely wondered why he said that...

2019-2020 Limited has the same powertrain (engine/transmission) as the Raptor. The 4WD system on the Raptor is unique, as is the frame, body, suspension, axles, etc. If you're looking for an off-road capable vehicle, the Limited is the opposite of that.

 

[crouton]

Thanks guys for taking the time to reply to my crazy long post and thank you for the warm welcome!! Feel right at home!

I wrote this last night real quick because I had a test drive scheduled today. Unfortunately, they just called to tell me they don't have any Raptors left. I went to take a look a week ago, and they have all been sold and delivered by last Saturday... *Luckily* they still have a couple parked somewhere else that are on their way, and should arrive right after Christmas!

The cam phaser issue only worried me because (I think it was on this forum) I read some 19's have it as well. But good to read it's not that common! Ford seems to be a lot better at actually fixing things for the next MY. Dodge just produces the same components that are known to fail and adds a brand new year to the recall list, lol... For example: if you get a 2009 Hemi or a 2020, you know they're both gonna tick and eat through the camshaft at some point, it's actually insane.

but if you wanted those trucks, you’d be on the F150 site, not the Raptor site.

Seriously, the Raptor is an incredible truck.

You are absolutely right. I fell in love with the Raptors in 2017 but 'didn't need one'. Now I went to look at one and he showed me a Limited first... then he tried to show me RAM's, even though I specifically told him I'd rather not spend money on a Mopar product, and how I've been treated by FCA.

I wasn't sure if he tried to help me by saying a Limited is 'better', or if they don't make good money on a Raptor. Because I 'only' really need to drive through soft mud and grass. The Limited also felt so much smaller, probably because it felt like it sat lower to the ground.
In 2019 I was on a road trip through the EU and ended up changing my oil at a dealer that had Raptors on the lot as well in Germany, and they completely bashed it for how rough it feels and other things, even though it seems like a very nice truck? So I wondered what the deal is with dealers trying to push you to something... less expensive?
Ford even tried to put me in a Ranger Raptor... I know they make a lot of profit on those, but I'm not looking for a 4 or 5 cyl diesel.

I'm considering a Raptor because it looks good, literally fell in love with it when it came out and always wanted one, I need something better than my RAM off-road and I want something special. RAM is the best sold truck so you see them everywhere...
I'd love to feel like I can go anywhere, and I think the Raptor is great for that! My RAM absolutely doesn't give me that feeling at all, after almost being stuck a few times and the ground clearance issues I've had...

LOBO is the Mexican version of the F-150. My guess would be that they're easier/cheaper to import to Belgium, hence why they seem to be more common. I'm not familiar with any of the visual or mechanical differences, just the name change. Base Raptors come with cloth seats, so that may be what you're seeing.

Thank you! I talked to Ford first (there only have 1 available in the very good looking blue, but are quite a bit more expensive and you can't go see it) and they said they ran out of stock in June, so Ford send them the very last batch of Raptors that were technically meant for Mexico. I checked multiple dealers and they indeed all say "Lobo", whereas the models I see on the road say "F150". If there's no technical difference, I don't mind.
Do you think I take the 'LOBO' badge off on the tailgate that spells FORD? Is it just glued on? Because the Lobo badge is pretty huge!
Other than that, Ford only sells models with the "8 O 2" package, whatever that means. I snapped a pic of a VIN last week but don't think I can pull up a build sheet online (couldn't find it).

And I'm sorry, I didn't mean cloth seats, but cloth inserts. I'm not sure what that's called in English: the part that cushions you in (bolster?). The rest of the seat looks leather. Some say it's a Lobo thing, some say it's a 2020 thing?

The 4WD system on the Raptor is unique, as is the frame, body, suspension, axles, etc. If you're looking for an off-road capable vehicle, the Limited is the opposite of that.

That's what I needed to hear! I need to get to my sites (usually nothing but mud) and often get there early, idle and work on my computer a little. My RAM literally can't do that because a Hemi destroys itself at idle / low oil pressure and the cherry on top of the pie is I'll get stuck.
I have a little bit of a forest behind my backyard and love to go off-road for fun as well!

The sales guy told me if you don't climb rocks or jump, there's nothing a Raptor can do that a Limited can't... but like most sales people, I don't really think he knew what he's talking about. Glad I joined this forum where people with actual knowledge and experience can teach me! So excited to go test drive one now!

Damn, I wanted to ask something else, but I forgot...

EDIT: I remember! Is a Raptor actually truly wider mirror to mirror? The sales guy said it's 'significantly' wider, but it felt pretty similar inside. Just wider fenders. Is it really 'wider', or the same as a regular F-150? Thank you!!

Thanks dudes! You guys are truly amazing!!

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

The hips of the truck are wider than a standard F150 (6 inches I believe), but the cab size is exactly the same. I also believe that because the mirrors mount to the door, a Raptor isn’t any wider than a standard F150 when you measure mirror to mirror.

 

[smurfslayer]

EDIT: I remember! Is a Raptor actually truly wider mirror to mirror? The sales guy said it's 'significantly' wider, but it felt pretty similar inside. Just wider fenders. Is it really 'wider', or the same as a regular F-150? Thank you!!

My wife and I just took a measurement of Lucille, mirror to mirror - a tick under 100 inches, or a tick under 254cm. I know this is close because I measured many garages here in Texas and 1 car garages in older homes are not wide enough to park with mirrors extended.

Other than that, Ford only sells models with the "8 O 2" package, whatever that means.

802a is the highest option package on the Raptor; it is the most profitable and common. 801a is the mid level
800a is the base trim of a Raptor.

In 2019 I was on a road trip through the EU and ended up changing my oil at a dealer that had Raptors on the lot as well in Germany, and they completely bashed it for how rough it feels and other things, even though it seems like a very nice truck? So I wondered what the deal is with dealers trying to push you to something... less expensive?

Germans. Entirely too impressed with their driving acumen. Don’t get me wrong, they’re fine drivers but just as guilty of left lane turtling as here in the USA.

With roughly 9 dollar per gallon gasoline prices, there aren’t many large or uneconomical vehicles riding around in Germany. My bet is they had the tires set at 40+ PSI, which is good for keeping the tire from rolling over in corners, but it’s the enemy of the Raptor’s suspension which needs the tire pressure in the low to mid 30’s.

They, and other European countries with traditionally high fuel costs “get” smaller, compact and fuel efficient vehicles, as a society. Sure, there are gear heads in the Olde country too, but fueling a Rap in Europe is about 3-4 times what it costs here in the USA. So it’s not surprising the dealer didn’t “get it”.

The Limited is certainly all most people will ever need from a truck. Similarly, most Europeans can make do with a Fiat Punto just fine.

But who wants to drive a Punto?

If you want the Raptor, you don’t want a limited or platinum.

 

[crouton]

@smurfslayer
Thank God gas prices aren't that high, yet
It's more like 5 USD / gal for 95 RON, our lowest grade (about 91 AKI in the U.S.), but I totally get your point. The funny part is, this was a dealer with nothing but trucks. I looked it up and they do Ford trucks, RAM and Toyota mid and fullsize (anything that isn't a Hilux diesel is sold seperately). So really the only V6, aside from Tacoma's, on the lot. I think they genuienly make less money on Raptors or something, but I didn't care too much because at the time I wasn't looking for something new.

And you'd actually be surprised how similar cars in Europe are compared to the U.S. Most people getting economy cars are because they make sense in our historically small cities (even though I've never had a problem with my full size truck), and tax. You're taxed based on emission, displacement and efficiency (displacement vs. power output, which is why almost all cars are turbocharged). For a 6.4 Grand Cherokee, you'd pay €10.000 up front to register it, and €3.000 a year. A Renegade - which has been facelifted in Europe - now has a turbo 3 cyl (instead of a turbo 4 cyl) and would be €150 to register and probably about the same annualy. That's a huge difference. It also sounds ridiculous compared to the 2.4 n/a 4 banger in the U.S. (we never got), but performance wise they're pretty similar. And obviously, in real life, their fuel consumption is similar as well, but it only matters they're more 'efficient' on paper.

This doesn't count for pick-up trucks where I live. Free registration and about €140 tax, whether it's a 2 cylinder or an SRT10. I'm looking for a truck *now* because it's gonna change soon. They think too many regular people like myself took advantage of the system, getting trucks as family vehicles. So starting February, newly registered trucks will have to pay road tax as well, like cars.

And of course, diesel is still very important in Europe. More efficient, higher power density, same price, ... Audi for example sold it's SQ7 (a sport-ish crossover) with nothing but a 4.0 diesel V8 that made 400 hp for years, before finally giving us a gas option because after the 2015 drama, Europe is trying to move away from diesel and they're banned from certain NOx zones (as well as some direct injected gas cars).

However, GM was probably the first in their smaller cars, but still does it in trucks and so does RAM: they all offer a BiFuel option. You basically get a second fuel tank filled with 'autogas' (propane/butane mixture). You can just pump it at most gas stations as well, very similar to regular gas.
Your truck runs on gas until it reaches a certain temperature (49°C/120°F on Hemi's, 70°C/158°C on Pentastars) and then switches to autogas, and switched back when you run out. It's currently around $2,20/gal around me, so not too bad, and between 100-105 octane in North America, the mixture changes depending on the season. You can't tell at all, other than the smell when the cats are still cold. I have a couple of American expats in my neighborhood and they all took their trucks to GM and Ford to get the BiFuel option installed, lol!

Been working great in my RAM. I have the long range so 160 liters autogas + 95 liters gasoline (42 + 25 gal). Some say fuel economy could be slightly worse on autogas, which I have noticed if I fill up in the Netherlands, but in Belgium it's virtually identical to gasoline. It can extend your range, too, if you're willing to empty both tanks: it switches seamlessly between the two.

I talked to Ford and they have a long range option as well + it puts me one class higher when it comes to emissions in countries like France and Spain. The newer 3.5's and 5.0's from Ford just inject a little bit of gasoline every now and then because they're GDI. With my 5.7 (only used gasoline to get up to temperature and when you start it, even when hot) I got about 470 mpg on gasoline. I occasionally ran it on gasoline if I ran out of the other stuff as well.

I'm sorry, I know... it's a crazy long post again, but I'm just so excited. I really want this dealership to call me so I can go for a test ride and get things figured out. If they allow me to pay a little more cash up front and give me a better trade-in value for my truck....... I'm gonna do it.

No way to find the sticker or build sheet for Fords? I have a VIN, but I can't find it online? Just checking anybody knows here, you guys are a lot smarter than me or most sales men!

Thank you guys for your help and AWESOME input! I'm so excited, I feel like a kid in a toy store!!

Have a great Christmas as well you guys, if you're into that! It's been a messed up year.

 

[Braaaaptor]

The cam phaser issue only worried me because (I think it was on this forum) I read some 19's have it as well.

If the build date is newer than April 2019, you have the updated parts and it's no longer a concern. My '20 has been bulletproof aside from a malfunctioning front camera which seems to affect 2020 Ford's across the board. Quick and easy fix and covered by warranty (if not a recall IIRC).

Other than that, Ford only sells models with the "8 O 2" package, whatever that means. I snapped a pic of a VIN last week but don't think I can pull up a build sheet online (couldn't find it).

802a will get you a fully loaded truck, heated/ventilated seats, dual zone climate, blind spot monitoring and radar cruise control, push button start and many other goodies.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean cloth seats, but cloth inserts. I'm not sure what that's called in English: the part that cushions you in (bolster?). The rest of the seat looks leather. Some say it's a Lobo thing, some say it's a 2020 thing?

It's a 2020 thing. Through the different model years there's been slight improvements, cloth on the bolsters is actually a good thing because that's the part of the seat you're constantly climbing out and over, the cloth will age better in this area than leather will. Plus I like the hex design as well.

Thanks dudes! You guys are truly amazing!!

 

[CoronaRaptor]

Welcome to the place. Let us know if you get one, they are very reliable vehicles.

 

[Jonesky]

New guy here would like to chime in with re-emphasizing if you want a Raptor there is very little substitute. Get one if you’re able. You won’t feel a thing on those cobblestone streets they have in German cities.