Engine rattle/noise at start up

[FORZDA 1]

There is more to it than a batch of bad parts as this has been going since the first 2017 Raptors based on the research I have done. They did not solve the problem the last time with redesigned parts. I have friends with standard 3.5s in 2015 and 16 F150s here locally reporting the rattle. In my opinion there is design flaw with the engine that is yet to be diagnosed. Ford will figure it out eventually.

We actually may have banned the one guy that seemed to have the most knowledge of this issue. Sasquatch aka MGD may have been right. That was hard to type!

Yeah, you may be right, but there are too many that don't fail to be a basic design flaw UNLESS there are some conditions that accelerate the problem and most do not drive in those conditions. That last part is all wrong though. That guy was just a sore loser banned from every forum. LOL

 

[Cuzin Eddie]

This isn’t giving me the confidence I wanted being that I am suppose to pick up my new Raptor next week. Dang...I should of never read this post.

 

[Sharkus29]

This isn’t giving me the confidence I wanted being that I am suppose to pick up my new Raptor next week. Dang...I should of never read this post.

There is thousands of Raptors built every year. 90% of them are problem free. You never hear about the ones that don't have problems, where as you'll hear about every one that does. It may seem like a lot cause you've seen a few posts here about engine rattle start up but its not as many as you would think. Don't worry about it and just be excited to enjoy your new truck!

 

[cwylie]

After sitting overnight:

After sitting two days:

I almost missed the second video because I didnt hit the button fast enough.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Ok, that is LOUD and no question it is valve train related and corrected by oil pressure. The phaser must be bleeding down overnight similarly to old hydraulic lifters. The old lifter clatter at startup was due to poor maintenance and old school oils that would leave terrible deposits when allowed to cool and harden in small spaces.

After viewing photos of the Ford phasers, it appears that the external clock spring needs to be much stronger to hold the phaser in position when no oil pressure is present. In any case, the noise indicates the phaser is banging back and forth driven by valve spring pressure until the oil pressure comes up to force and hold it in position.

I'm surprised the aftermarket hasn't jumped right on that shit and made some replacements. I suppose there just aren't enough failures to drive them into production. There are several better OEM designs on the market (Mazda is one), so I'm surprised that Ford, that owned a big chunk of Mazda for years, hasn't come up with a better design. Maybe patents in the way?

 

[smurfslayer]

Hmmmm? Thinking about the issue and the problem seems to mostly occur after the first oil change. Ford dealerships are notorious for using their bulk 5w20 oil in everything they service with no reference to the actual viscosity requirements. The 2014 Fiesta ST 1.6 turbo required 5w30 yet the dealers consistently put 5w20 in them. Same with the Focus RS that requires 5w50 and again the minimum wage goons used 5w20. It’s really hard to prove a problem caused by low viscosity oil, but the cam vvt actuators depend on the oil viscosity for accuracy. A leak-down issue is certainly internal sealing or oil vis problem.

The truck came with 5w20 in it according to my first oil analysis. I had 5w30 put in at the 1st change and 2nd. the 1st change was confirmed to have been 5w30 by analysis.

Apparently there are not a lot of non HD / Duc campaigning bikers on here. Anyone with a modern inline 4 sport bike, older H*nda V4’s, and I’m sure more out there use the same oil pressurized cam chain tensioners that we’re talking about in the Ford engines going back to at least the first Modular V8’s. These things apply tension to the cam chain using - wait for it.... Oil pressure.

Guess what you have zero of when your Raptor is off? go on, I’ll wait.
That’s right, oil pressure. However, when you start up, and the oil pump starts circulating the engine oil, within fractions of a second to a few seconds those tensioners pressurize and apply tension to the loose timing chain.

Why is it loose in the first place? Longevity, among other concerns. Timing chains are under enormous loads, especially under hard driving. A good illustration of this is going from WFO throttle and lifting or chopping the throttle on engine braking, and then back to WFO. If the chain is too tight it will loosen and wear faster as well as stress the connected parts under heavy load.

So, upon startup, OHC engines using a cam chain - some Honda V4’s used gears, another topic entirely, and they’re using an automatic adjusting, oil pressurized cam chain tensioner, there’s going to be a loose cam chain at start up.
Many of the modern sportbikes have these and there are numerous aftermarket, mechanically adjusted cam chain tensioners to address this issue. They help alleviate some of the start up noise.

That is not to say there isn’t a phaser noise going on in all cases, but, initial start up rattle resulting from oil pressurized cam chain tensioners is kind of expected. Persistent noises... Not so much. Cam chain noise should be gone in ... maybe 5 seconds?

 

[smurfslayer]

Hmmmm? Thinking about the issue and the problem seems to mostly occur after the first oil change. Ford dealerships are notorious for using their bulk 5w20 oil in everything they service with no reference to the actual viscosity requirements. The 2014 Fiesta ST 1.6 turbo required 5w30 yet the dealers consistently put 5w20 in them. Same with the Focus RS that requires 5w50 and again the minimum wage goons used 5w20. It’s really hard to prove a problem caused by low viscosity oil, but the cam vvt actuators depend on the oil viscosity for accuracy. A leak-down issue is certainly internal sealing or oil vis problem.

The truck came with 5w20 in it according to my first oil analysis. I had 5w30 put in at the 1st change and 2nd. the 1st change was confirmed to have been 5w30 by analysis.

Check this out. Ford knows exactly what is going on! This sounds very familiar.

That video is almost 3 years old.

 

[smurfslayer]

We actually may have banned the one guy that seemed to have the most knowledge of this issue. Sasquatch aka MGD may have been right. That was hard to type!

You should ask it. Banning some of their user accounts didn’t get rid of them, they’re still here and closer than you might think.

 

[smurfslayer]

[QUOTE="FORZDA 1, post: 1291541, member: 26637”]...

I'm surprised the aftermarket hasn't jumped right on that shit and made some replacements. I suppose there just aren't enough failures to drive them into production. There are several better OEM designs on the market (Mazda is one), so I'm surprised that Ford, that owned a big chunk of Mazda for years, hasn't come up with a better design. Maybe patents in the way?[/QUOTE]

Has anyone done an “electric assist” with oil pressurized? I don’t know of it if they have but, think about it; apply ignition or start button and energize a solenoid until the tensioner has sufficient pressure. That would beat mechanically adjusted ones.

The car buying public largely doesn’t remember we used to have cars with mechanically adjusted valves...

 

[FORZDA 1]

The truck came with 5w20 in it according to my first oil analysis. I had 5w30 put in at the 1st change and 2nd. the 1st change was confirmed to have been 5w30 by analysis.

Apparently there are not a lot of non HD / Duc campaigning bikers on here. Anyone with a modern inline 4 sport bike, older H*nda V4’s, and I’m sure more out there use the same oil pressurized cam chain tensioners that we’re talking about in the Ford engines going back to at least the first Modular V8’s. These things apply tension to the cam chain using - wait for it.... Oil pressure.

Guess what you have zero of when your Raptor is off? go on, I’ll wait.
That’s right, oil pressure. However, when you start up, and the oil pump starts circulating the engine oil, within fractions of a second to a few seconds those tensioners pressurize and apply tension to the loose timing chain.

Why is it loose in the first place? Longevity, among other concerns. Timing chains are under enormous loads, especially under hard driving. A good illustration of this is going from WFO throttle and lifting or chopping the throttle on engine braking, and then back to WFO. If the chain is too tight it will loosen and wear faster as well as stress the connected parts under heavy load.

So, upon startup, OHC engines using a cam chain - some Honda V4’s used gears, another topic entirely, and they’re using an automatic adjusting, oil pressurized cam chain tensioner, there’s going to be a loose cam chain at start up.
Many of the modern sportbikes have these and there are numerous aftermarket, mechanically adjusted cam chain tensioners to address this issue. They help alleviate some of the start up noise.

That is not to say there isn’t a phaser noise going on in all cases, but, initial start up rattle resulting from oil pressurized cam chain tensioners is kind of expected. Persistent noises... Not so much. Cam chain noise should be gone in ... maybe 5 seconds?

The oil-pressure tensioned timing chains, like you say, are nothing new. HOWEVER, they do have a ratchet mechanism in them that keep the tensioner from ever allowing the chain to "loosen". They do NOT depend on oil pressure to stay in their "tensioned" place. Camshaft timing actuators use a VERY strong spring to hold them in a neutral position when the engine is off (no oil pressure). Most are very short springs inside the housing, but Ford's are exposed on the outside.

My Aprilia RSV4 Factory is known for some of the engines developing the cam chain startup rattle when the chain is stretched beyond the tensioner travel. If allowed to continue for long, a valve will touch a piston at high revs and the engine will break the valve and grenade. Of course, Aprilia has had several catastrophic engine problems over the years.

The Ford noise at startup that I heard in the video is nowhere near a "normal" situation. It is indicative of a faulty actuator.

The wastegate rattle however is normal because it is pulled open at startup to allow easy passage of exhaust to the cat for quicker light off. The exhaust is pulsing at low revs, so the wastegate actuator arm rattles because the is little pressure.