GEN 2 Audio upgrade in 2017 SCREW

[smurfslayer]

No apologies; it’s your truck !

I still think you need more sub.

 

[melvimbe]

I have a question. I'm looking through the user manual for the amp I've been recommended and I see references to 'active' and 'passive' speakers. What's the difference?

I'm used to home speakers where passive means it needs power through speaker wire, while active means the speaker has a built in amp. That doesn't seem to apply here. It looks as though an active speaker has not crossover between it and the amp, relying on the amp to send the right frequencies. Passive means the amp is sending out full range, relying on a crossover to pass the right frequency to the speaker(s)? Is that right?

I think the 8 channel amp is pushed as the corresponding 5 channel amp from Audison has much lower power. The 4 channel amp is 70W per channel, lower than the 8 channel amps 85W per channel. And I would need a separate amp for the sub. All at 4 ohms

The 8 channel amp would likely be configured as the front tweeter, front woofer, and rear woofer, as separate channels (6 - I guess no need for crossover), with the last two channels bridged for 250 W for the sub woofer.

So why the 8 channel amp? Because no other Audison amp can really handle it without adding an amp for the sub? Why only one sub? Because it would ditching Audison and/or adding a separate amp for the subs, which the shop guy thinks may give me a bit of sticker shock.

It may also be that the DSP with the 8 channel amp is better/different than other Audison options, not sure on that yet.

 

[goblues38]

active means the amp is doing the crossover work. Sounds like this is how they are wiring you up. 7-8 channels

2 channels to front tweeters
2 channels to front mid woofers
2 channels to rear coax
2 channels bridged to 1 for sub

To me that is overkill. Here is how I would do it. with a 5-6 channel amp.

2 channels to front passive crossover to tweeters and mid woofers
2 channels to rear coax
2 channels bridged to 1 for subs

in theory, you gain a little more efficiency because you are not having to scrub frequency or power by going through a passive crossover (capacitors and coils). In most cases, it is not needed. one benefit is you are able to adjust the crossover point between the speakers to address any issue.

First off, I'm not trying to build the best system possible. I mostly just want a good system with clarity. The stock system does come off as rather flat to me. I do want some bass, but I don't need to a ton of it. Mostly listen to rock and country. I've seen the under $500 thread and like the idea, but am a little afraid it's not going to be satisfying long term and I'll end up doing a second upgrade.

As we said before...your stated goals of a nice sounding truck without breaking the bank do not line up with the system you were quoted. Dedicated active crossovers for separates is pretty high end stuff. And Rock and country will sound flat with just a single 8 at moderate volumes with the high end components and power you have.

Why so hell bent on Audison? plenty of other amps out there. Paying labor....to do a system that you said you wanted, you should come in around $3k, and that would include 2 10's, no a single 8.

 

[smurfslayer]

Yeah, what he said. You don’t need more than about 50-60 rms to start causing hearing damage. I know, it’s not about ’need’ here. The stock stereo is about 25w rms and already can hit about 100db easy, and higher peak. Sure, it’s weak when you put the windows down, but it’s hearing safe. if you go over double the power in, the stereo will be more than capable of being too loud to listen to at full volume, windows up without causing hearing damage.

Your goals need to include precise sound, good imaging along with the increased power and ( yeah, broken record, dead horse and all ) you need more bass to set the stage for that more precise sound and imaging.

Mostly listen to rock and country. I've seen the under $500 thread and like the idea, but am a little afraid it's not going to be satisfying long term and I'll end up doing a second upgrade.

look, ‘Bubba shot the jukebox’ needs a hard hitting sub.

You’re right though, the under 500 is going to leave you with the prospect of upgrading again. If you do it yourself, about $2k is where I think the bang for the buck line is.

a 10” sub w/ amp, components up front, coax back, lose the center channel, DSP + amps. DSR1 has room for 6 speakers ( plus the sub IIRC, don’t quote me ), not sure about the NAV unit. The point being, about 500-600 in 4 decent door speakers, amps at your discretion, about 1-1.2k for sub, amp and enclosure, less if you are going to use floor subs.

let’s call it 2250-2500.

It sounds like a lot, but, if you were of a mind to do it in stages, you could do the sub first on the ’17 without a DSP. The add in the rest of the stuff. The 18 and up I think requires the DSP(?) because of the b&o system differences.

anyway... MTI pushes the JL audio line too. Initially, I was going to just buy their behind the seat enclosure but they only sell it with the sub, so I deferred to the pros and honestly, I’m glad I did.

If your guys are confident in their work, maybe they know some stuff we don’t.

 

[lateralis]

active means the amp is doing the crossover work. Sounds like this is how they are wiring you up. 7-8 channels

2 channels to front tweeters
2 channels to front mid woofers
2 channels to rear coax
2 channels bridged to 1 for sub

To me that is overkill. Here is how I would do it. with a 5-6 channel amp.

2 channels to front passive crossover to tweeters and mid woofers
2 channels to rear coax
2 channels bridged to 1 for subs

in theory, you gain a little more efficiency because you are not having to scrub frequency or power by going through a passive crossover (capacitors and coils). In most cases, it is not needed. one benefit is you are able to adjust the crossover point between the speakers to address any issue.



As we said before...your stated goals of a nice sounding truck without breaking the bank do not line up with the system you were quoted. Dedicated active crossovers for separates is pretty high end stuff. And Rock and country will sound flat with just a single 8 at moderate volumes with the high end components and power you have.

Why so hell bent on Audison? plenty of other amps out there. Paying labor....to do a system that you said you wanted, you should come in around $3k, and that would include 2 10's, no a single 8.

goblues39 has it spot on. What I don't get is why they are even bothering with component speakers that come with passive crossovers and using an amp with a DSP. You won't even be using 90% of the functionality of the DSP and at that point you're just paying for the name and a function you cannot even really utilize.

The reason I'm saying this is that all the frequency tuning that a DSP can give you goes out the window when using a passive crossover. The crossovers are already built for the specific speakers and you cannot change anything unless its within the band that the crossovers allows to pass through. Also time alignment is another big thing with DSP's. With components, unless the speakers are mounted right next to each other (Tweeter and Mid's) when using a passive crossover, everything will go out of whack due to the difference in distance. For example, currently your truck has tweeters far forward on the A pillar with the Mids in the door by your knee. As far as I can tell the are not the same distance from your head. When using a passive crossover you are only getting 1 signal sent to the corner (Front left) which is then split by the crossover to the tweeter and mid. So in this instance what ever the time delay you set will be applied to both even though they are at different distances. The only ones that could benefit from that are coax speakers since the tweeters are usually built into the center of the speaker.

In the setup they quoted you the only thing that can fully utilize the DSP would be the sub..... and its tiny.... Maybe 2 8's at least? But at that point the amp probably can't handle it. Also if you come to find that the 8" isn't enough and you want to go bigger or more subs you're going to need another amp just to power them. At this point you need to reconfigure all sorts of stuff to make it work. A single or dual 10" IMO is you best bet. You can always turn down the bass when you have more than you need. It is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[lateralis]

It sounds like a lot, but, if you were of a mind to do it in stages, you could do the sub first on the ’17 without a DSP. The add in the rest of the stuff. The 18 and up I think requires the DSP(?) because of the b&o system differences.

You don't need a DSP with trucks with the B&O system if using a NavTV. B&O already has a DSP built in that you can mess with some stuff when using the NavTV. They give you the option to keep it on or turn it off to get the full digital signal. So when using it you can literally just plug and play the NavTV, run the RCA's to your amps and be done with it. I'm not sure what all you can do with the stock DSP though.

 

[The Car Stereo Company]

we need to clarify some things in this thread.

a true dsp is going to be the most powerful piece of equipment in a sound system. all the equipment you buy has to be able to keep up with it. the reason you use an 8 channel setup is correct. however whats not mentioned here is the ability to tune each speaker individually as well as adjust time alignment. you will not use the crossovers that come with the speakers. you will connect direct to an amplifier and set the crossover parameters through the dsp. a system thats tuned correctly is leaps and bounds a better sounding than the same equipment without a dsp. with a dsp you can move the sound stage to up and in front of you instead of always hearing the speaker closest to you. i use a mosconi 6to8 processor and use a 29band eq for just my front tweeters. i have them set as a high pass filter at 3500hz on a 24db per octave slope. i can adjust the one tweeter individually through the processor as well as every other speaker connected to it. the midbass drivers are set as a bandpass and also use a 29 band eq. basically i have 1/18 octave of adjustments for my front stage. tuning is a whole nother side of the audio. you can have this great equipment but if its not tuned right can and will damage your equipment as well as make it sound bad. theres so much involved in tuning that you can easily screw things up. as an sq judge i have seen firsthand what a bad tune will do. that being said, its all a matter of how far you want your build to go

 

[melvimbe]

A few things.

I'm not hellbent on audison, it's just what my shop is pushing. Agree that I probably need to look strongly at other DSP/amp options, on my own and/or with another shop.

The conversation above does help clear things up a bit. Looking at the audison site, and based on what @The Car Stereo Company stated above, I'm pretty confident the plan was to use amp with seperate channels for the front components, ditching the crossover that came with the focals. I can see where that's advantagous from a DSP standpoint. With this amp, I'd get 85W @ 4ohm for the main 6 speakers, and 1 260W @ 4ohm for a single sub. Sounds like 85W is more than enough, but I'm limited on the sub side. I could add a seperate amp for the subs, but then my 'main' sub is over sized.

The pre-configured setup, which I imagine can be tweaked.
High pass (tweeters) - 3000hz@12db
Band pass (front woofers) - 500-3000hz@12db
High pass (rear) - 80hz@12db
Lo pass (Sub) - 80hz@12db

But again, I think it's time to look at other options a bit further.


One question, can a single mono amp be used to drive 2 subs? My understanding is that if you wire 2 speakers in parallel like this, you're presenting the impedance of the speakers on the amp. So for example, a mono amp that was rated to handle a 4ohm or 2 ohm impedance hooked up to two subs rated at 4 ohms, would actually have the W specified for 2 ohms. Correct?

 

[Blown00gt]

A few things.

I'm not hellbent on audison, it's just what my shop is pushing. Agree that I probably need to look strongly at other DSP/amp options, on my own and/or with another shop.

The conversation above does help clear things up a bit. Looking at the audison site, and based on what @The Car Stereo Company stated above, I'm pretty confident the plan was to use amp with seperate channels for the front components, ditching the crossover that came with the focals. I can see where that's advantagous from a DSP standpoint. With this amp, I'd get 85W @ 4ohm for the main 6 speakers, and 1 260W @ 4ohm for a single sub. Sounds like 85W is more than enough, but I'm limited on the sub side. I could add a seperate amp for the subs, but then my 'main' sub is over sized.

The pre-configured setup, which I imagine can be tweaked.
High pass (tweeters) - 3000hz@12db
Band pass (front woofers) - 500-3000hz@12db
High pass (rear) - 80hz@12db
Lo pass (Sub) - 80hz@12db

But again, I think it's time to look at other options a bit further.


One question, can a single mono amp be used to drive 2 subs? My understanding is that if you wire 2 speakers in parallel like this, you're presenting the impedance of the speakers on the amp. So for example, a mono amp that was rated to handle a 4ohm or 2 ohm impedance hooked up to two subs rated at 4 ohms, would actually have the W specified for 2 ohms. Correct?

My build consists of basically the same door speakers as yours. Only difference is I am running 2 10”subs. I will be using Arc Audio 1200.6 for the mids/highs and Arc Audio 1100.1 to run the 2 subs. Mosconi 6-8 for the processor. If your willing to wait a month I can give you feedback on subs however after all the discussions/reviews think for the money the Audiomobile subs will be the best bang for the buck (by far)for what I am trying to accomplish. Like you, I want clarity and accurate. I am not trying to be heard miles away. Also, in what I have seen, the install and tuning is just as if not more important then the gear. So yes, one mono amp will run 2 subs.

 

[goblues38]

0
One question, can a single mono amp be used to drive 2 subs? My understanding is that if you wire 2 speakers in parallel like this, you're presenting the impedance of the speakers on the amp. So for example, a mono amp that was rated to handle a 4ohm or 2 ohm impedance hooked up to two subs rated at 4 ohms, would actually have the W specified for 2 ohms. Correct?

Most modern amps should be able to handle a 2 ohm impedance....but it not...that is what they invented dual voice coils, or 2,4,8 ohm woofers. flexibility to get your final impedance to where the amp needs it to be.

i would also add...500 is way to high for the high pass of the front woofers. A quality speaker lie what you are buying, should play fine at 80-100 for the cross over point.