BigJ
FRF Addict
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2010
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(There will be no test run by me. See the final post in this thread as to why. The following is left as is and unedited, preserved for historical purposes.)
Lets kick this off official like!
[Who wants to come up with a logo? PM me your ideas, I'll pick my favorite and it will go here!]
What is a "Shock Shootout"?
Its pretty simple, actually. We're going to pit head to head as many different shock options for the Raptor as we can. We're gonna do this in an unbaised, fair and straight forward way, show you everything we learn and let you decide which option is best for you. This isn't about selling you on brand X. This is about us potential customers sifting through all the "fan boy noise" and seeing with our own eyes what our money buys us, before we spend it. Dig in, cause this is gonna be fun!
Who the hell are you? What makes your tests any good?
I'm just your basic Raptor owner who's always on the look out for the 'next' mod to take my truck to the next level. But at the same time, I have this thing about cutting through all the hype and seeing for my own eyes exactly what my money is buying me. As it turns out, lots of other folks out there take the same approach.
And so it was that several years ago I spoke up on a car forum much like this one and said "Well, why don't we just test it and see?" Little did I know that innocent question would result in me spearheading 7 or 8 mega test events since, spanning dozens of modifications, thousands of dyno pulls, hundreds of quarter mile strip drag runs, hosting hundreds of people locally and thousands online via webcam and chat... basically I'm the dummy who volunteers to take point and help answer some of these hard questions. You'd think I'd learned my lesson by now
I can't guarantee a perfectly scientific test. I can't guarantee I won't mess something up along the way, either. But what I can guarantee is that I wont be bought, that there is no ego here, and that I will always remain receptive to constructive criticism, suggestion and critique. The bottom line here is that you and I are on the same side, and we want the same thing; the best test possible ending up in the most informative meaningful results, so each of us can see and know for ourselves what our hard earned money is buying.
Yeah but this stuff is so subjective and opinion based. What do you hope to accomplish?
First and foremost, this complaint and concern is 100% right. So much of this is subjective and opinion based. If you're looking for rigorous scientific proof of something, you're going to be disappointed in what we do here.
However, the idea that an average Joe like me can gather a bunch of parts, test them in repeatable ways and just see what we see? I think the concept and approach has merit, and my experience says its always a good time where people have fun, and something useful is usually learned. You bet its going to be subjective and based on opinion, and you bet its all based on how things performed on that truck with that driver on that day. But the thing is, they'll all be performing on that truck, with that driver on that day. In other words, we should be able to see RELATIVE differences, if not global results. Don't confuse the two... I am after relative differences here, NOT global conclusions. The difference between those two goals is night and day.
Bottom line? If you're looking to declare a winner, go somewhere else. If you're hoping to see how X looks compared to Y over the same terrain in the same hands on the same truck? Then you're in the right place.
When are you going to test these things?
Shock dyno testing and real world testing dates and times are TBD. *
Where? Can I come play?
Of course! The more the merrier! The organizers will have their hands full pulling off the tests, so they may not get to join in much of the festivities, but that shouldn't stop you from coming out and throwing your own party or carving your own path in the dirt, or watching the tests get run, or just hanging out. Whatever! All are welcome.
Where is TBD, and will probably involve several different locations (shock dyno shop, install shop, desert track...) so you'll have lots of opportunity to come join us. Once parts start rolling in, we'll be able to set dates and times, and go from there.
And if you can't make it in person? We're going to investigate live webcam and chat room options too. Not quite the same, but you'll keep the dirt out of your teeth that way
How can I help??
Well, its an unfortunate reality that I am not made of money. That means if we're going to make this happen, its going to be supported by you fine folks. Either by loaning us your parts, contributing financially, or volunteering your time. Got a set of shocks we can borrow? Please see the "Shocks To Test" section and take a look. And the "Stuff We Need" section below... PLEASE help out where you can. If we come up short in any one of them, none of this happens guys. Hopefully there's enough interest out there in something like this, and we all get to learn something and have fun while doing it.
Shocks To Test
Any shock option we can get our hands on. We are not the manufacturers, or their representatives! We're just current or potential customers. With that in mind, we are totally dependent on loaner parts. Without parts, we have nothing to test!
Also, please note: if the shocks we are loaned are not "new" (or like new), we'll work together to send them back to the manufacturer for a refresh, at the "Shock Shootout"'s expense. That will be a nice little benefit of loaning them to us; after the test, you'll have fresh shocks again.
Shocks Received:
-
Shocks promised or enroute:
ICON 2.5 Stock Replacement Shocks : These retail for ???
(No image available yet)
To be supplied by ICON Vehicle Dynamics. Thank you ICON!!: (Not publicly available yet)
***Not yet received by me***
ICON 3.0 Performance Shock System: These retail for $5250
To be supplied by ICON Vehicle Dynamics. Thank you ICON!!: http://www.iconvehicledynamics.com/...erformance-Suspension-System-%2d-Stage-1.html
***Not yet received by me***
Fox OEMs: These are the shocks that come with the Raptor from the factory
We have two possible sources:
1) ICON has volunteers to source a brand new set of OEM shocks for test.
2) Raptizzle has offered up his 19k old OEMs.
***Neither yet received by me**
Shocks we're hoping to source:
Fox 3.0 Internal Bypass Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These retail for ???
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
King 3.0 Raptor Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These retail for $4999
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
RPG tuned Fox 3.0 Internal Bypass Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These differ from the Fox 3.0s in that they are valved to Raptor Performance Group's spec. These retail for $4698
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
How are you going to test them?
I propose we test these shocks two different ways.
Shock Dyno Testing
A shock dynamometer is a piece of equipment that allows testing of a shock's damping capabilities in a controlled repeatable way. It works by cycling the shock up and down at a predetermined rate for a predetermined time. When the "dyno run" is completed, the computer prints a curve of the shock's damping forces in both the compression and rebound strokes plotted against the time the test was running. These curves can then be compared, and things like heat related fade (or the resistance there to) can be measured. This is an "in the lab" type test and we'll work with the dyno owner and operator to develop the most telling results we can.
Anyone familiar with this sort of testing, please feel free chime in here. This is an open format. Also, I'm looking for an independent shop with the kinds of capabilities we need. Again, if anyone out there can help suggest who/where/what, please do!
Real World Driving Tests
All setups will be installed on the same truck. Install details need to be worked out (we need a shop and a professional independent installer), but in all cases the manufacturers recommended install procedure will be followed explicitly, and all manufacturer recommended default settings will be applied.
Each setup will be driven by three different drivers of varying skill; an "expert" driver, an "intermediate" driver and a "beginner". Each will drive the same prearranged course both on pavement and in the dirt, over as varied of terrain as we can find. Each driver will be recorded during the drive, and as many cameras as we can get a hold of will be positioned all over the truck and around the course, recording as many aspects as possible. Each driver will be interviewed after the drive for initial thoughts and impressions, and will be given the opportunity to request the shocks be "tuned" however they prefer, and they will then drive the course a second time. Even those shocks that have no adjustability will be mock adjusted, giving the driver the impression their requested changes were made. After the second trip around the course, they will again be interviewed and final thoughts will be given. The identity of the shocks tested will remain hidden until all sets have been run.
All videos, impressions thoughts and notes will be posted unedited for you to review and draw your own conclusions. I will NOT be declaring any winner here. I leave that to you, and your personal preferences, to determine for yourself.
Stuff We Need
Below are lists of things we need to make this happen, beyond the actual shocks already listed:
Money: Current Shock Shootout Fund Balance = $0
Like I said, this doesn't happen without money. We need to hire a shock dyno shop, an installer, pay for a few tanks of gas, buy the out of town drivers some room and board, shipping of the parts back and forth... I don't have a guess at how much we're going to need so instead I'll leave it open for now. If by some miracle I end up with money left over, I'll donate the balance to a good cause (TBD) in each of the contributors name.
Who has contributed (listed by date received):
-
Drivers:
We need three drivers; an expert, an intermediate and a beginner. Interested? Let me know and I'll add your name to the appropriate skill level, and we'll go from there.
Expert drivers:
-Treypal
-
Intermediate drivers:
-nobusa
Beginner drivers:
-vanilla_gorilla (tentative)
-
A Raptor:
Kinda a minor detail, this
.
We need a truck. After MUCH debate and discussion (read the thread) the current thinking is that we are looking for a frame reinforced but otherwise bone stock truck; no aftermarket leafs and no aftermarket bumps. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A FRAME KIT, RPG HAS VOLUNTEERED TO LOAN US ONE FOR THIS TEST, AND WE'LL COVER THE INSTALL COSTS! Thank you Raptor Performance Group!
http://www.rpgoffroad.com/products/stage-1-rear-suspension-kit/
If you have a modded truck and you'd be interested in volunteering it up, please still contact me. I'd like to talk with you anyway.
Also, please understand I cannot take responsibility for any damage your truck suffers during any part of this! I can't, and I won't. You volunteer it at your own risk. My suggestion is that the truck we use also be the truck owned by the beginner driver we pick. I am uncomfortable with the idea of putting a beginner in the position of wrecking someone else's truck.
This is serious business guys. Without a truck we don't have a test. On the other hand, I nor anyone associated with this Shock Shootout will be held responsible for ANY damage. Contact me at your own risk.
Truck volunteers:
-vanilla_gorilla (tentative)
-
Cameras and mounts:
We are gonna need lots of GoPro style cameras. Got one you can be without for a month or so? Please let me know!
Who's volunteered a camera:
-2x GoPros (with mounts?) from Treypal
-1x GoPros with lots of mounts from pat'sRaptor
A Three Axis Accelerometer:
We'll bolt this to something rigid inside the body and use it to collect data on the impacts/vibrations/acceleration numbers during the test drives of each shock. We'll then plot it in graph form, and use it to help corroborate the driver's "butt dyno" feedback and video results.
Shock Dyno Shop Suggestions:
Any suggestions? I'm willing to drive a good long way to make this happen if the shop comes well recommended. I figure I can probably test all the options in one very full day. Thoughts?
Install Shop Suggestions:
-nobusa has volunteered the use of his shop, complete with all the tools we're likely to need. He would like to make sure we know, however, he is not a shock specific shop, so we will still need a qualified installer to help lead the way if we do use his place. Thanks Noah!! The problem is his shop is in Northern California. I'm leaving this as an option since the venue hasn't been set yet, however I am leaning toward SoCal if at all possible.
I'm a little unclear how this needs to work, honestly. Ideally, I think we drive the truck to the shop, X gets installed, and its driven back to the 'course start' area to meet with the driver who drives it once, then twice. After that we drive it back to the shop for Y to be installed, rinse and repeat.
In terms of 'where', I am thinking SoCal (Anza Borrego? Barstow? Etc?) Anyone suggest a reliable quality trustworthy install shop?
In terms of timing, according to BlueSVT 2.5 hours per setup should be about right. We'll figure 3 hours per, just to be safe. So, realistically, that will mean at the most 2 setups tested per day if we bust our ass. Yausa!
Lets kick this off official like!
[Who wants to come up with a logo? PM me your ideas, I'll pick my favorite and it will go here!]
What is a "Shock Shootout"?
Its pretty simple, actually. We're going to pit head to head as many different shock options for the Raptor as we can. We're gonna do this in an unbaised, fair and straight forward way, show you everything we learn and let you decide which option is best for you. This isn't about selling you on brand X. This is about us potential customers sifting through all the "fan boy noise" and seeing with our own eyes what our money buys us, before we spend it. Dig in, cause this is gonna be fun!
Who the hell are you? What makes your tests any good?
I'm just your basic Raptor owner who's always on the look out for the 'next' mod to take my truck to the next level. But at the same time, I have this thing about cutting through all the hype and seeing for my own eyes exactly what my money is buying me. As it turns out, lots of other folks out there take the same approach.
And so it was that several years ago I spoke up on a car forum much like this one and said "Well, why don't we just test it and see?" Little did I know that innocent question would result in me spearheading 7 or 8 mega test events since, spanning dozens of modifications, thousands of dyno pulls, hundreds of quarter mile strip drag runs, hosting hundreds of people locally and thousands online via webcam and chat... basically I'm the dummy who volunteers to take point and help answer some of these hard questions. You'd think I'd learned my lesson by now
I can't guarantee a perfectly scientific test. I can't guarantee I won't mess something up along the way, either. But what I can guarantee is that I wont be bought, that there is no ego here, and that I will always remain receptive to constructive criticism, suggestion and critique. The bottom line here is that you and I are on the same side, and we want the same thing; the best test possible ending up in the most informative meaningful results, so each of us can see and know for ourselves what our hard earned money is buying.
Yeah but this stuff is so subjective and opinion based. What do you hope to accomplish?
First and foremost, this complaint and concern is 100% right. So much of this is subjective and opinion based. If you're looking for rigorous scientific proof of something, you're going to be disappointed in what we do here.
However, the idea that an average Joe like me can gather a bunch of parts, test them in repeatable ways and just see what we see? I think the concept and approach has merit, and my experience says its always a good time where people have fun, and something useful is usually learned. You bet its going to be subjective and based on opinion, and you bet its all based on how things performed on that truck with that driver on that day. But the thing is, they'll all be performing on that truck, with that driver on that day. In other words, we should be able to see RELATIVE differences, if not global results. Don't confuse the two... I am after relative differences here, NOT global conclusions. The difference between those two goals is night and day.
Bottom line? If you're looking to declare a winner, go somewhere else. If you're hoping to see how X looks compared to Y over the same terrain in the same hands on the same truck? Then you're in the right place.
When are you going to test these things?
Shock dyno testing and real world testing dates and times are TBD. *
Where? Can I come play?
Of course! The more the merrier! The organizers will have their hands full pulling off the tests, so they may not get to join in much of the festivities, but that shouldn't stop you from coming out and throwing your own party or carving your own path in the dirt, or watching the tests get run, or just hanging out. Whatever! All are welcome.
Where is TBD, and will probably involve several different locations (shock dyno shop, install shop, desert track...) so you'll have lots of opportunity to come join us. Once parts start rolling in, we'll be able to set dates and times, and go from there.
And if you can't make it in person? We're going to investigate live webcam and chat room options too. Not quite the same, but you'll keep the dirt out of your teeth that way
How can I help??
Well, its an unfortunate reality that I am not made of money. That means if we're going to make this happen, its going to be supported by you fine folks. Either by loaning us your parts, contributing financially, or volunteering your time. Got a set of shocks we can borrow? Please see the "Shocks To Test" section and take a look. And the "Stuff We Need" section below... PLEASE help out where you can. If we come up short in any one of them, none of this happens guys. Hopefully there's enough interest out there in something like this, and we all get to learn something and have fun while doing it.
Shocks To Test
Any shock option we can get our hands on. We are not the manufacturers, or their representatives! We're just current or potential customers. With that in mind, we are totally dependent on loaner parts. Without parts, we have nothing to test!
Also, please note: if the shocks we are loaned are not "new" (or like new), we'll work together to send them back to the manufacturer for a refresh, at the "Shock Shootout"'s expense. That will be a nice little benefit of loaning them to us; after the test, you'll have fresh shocks again.
Shocks Received:
-
Shocks promised or enroute:
ICON 2.5 Stock Replacement Shocks : These retail for ???
(No image available yet)
To be supplied by ICON Vehicle Dynamics. Thank you ICON!!: (Not publicly available yet)
***Not yet received by me***
ICON 3.0 Performance Shock System: These retail for $5250
To be supplied by ICON Vehicle Dynamics. Thank you ICON!!: http://www.iconvehicledynamics.com/...erformance-Suspension-System-%2d-Stage-1.html
***Not yet received by me***
Fox OEMs: These are the shocks that come with the Raptor from the factory
We have two possible sources:
1) ICON has volunteers to source a brand new set of OEM shocks for test.
2) Raptizzle has offered up his 19k old OEMs.
***Neither yet received by me**
Shocks we're hoping to source:
Fox 3.0 Internal Bypass Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These retail for ???
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
King 3.0 Raptor Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These retail for $4999
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
RPG tuned Fox 3.0 Internal Bypass Coil Over's and Rear Bypass Shocks: These differ from the Fox 3.0s in that they are valved to Raptor Performance Group's spec. These retail for $4698
**We are still looking for a set of these. Got some we can borrow? Send BigJ a PM.**
How are you going to test them?
I propose we test these shocks two different ways.
Shock Dyno Testing
A shock dynamometer is a piece of equipment that allows testing of a shock's damping capabilities in a controlled repeatable way. It works by cycling the shock up and down at a predetermined rate for a predetermined time. When the "dyno run" is completed, the computer prints a curve of the shock's damping forces in both the compression and rebound strokes plotted against the time the test was running. These curves can then be compared, and things like heat related fade (or the resistance there to) can be measured. This is an "in the lab" type test and we'll work with the dyno owner and operator to develop the most telling results we can.
Anyone familiar with this sort of testing, please feel free chime in here. This is an open format. Also, I'm looking for an independent shop with the kinds of capabilities we need. Again, if anyone out there can help suggest who/where/what, please do!
Real World Driving Tests
All setups will be installed on the same truck. Install details need to be worked out (we need a shop and a professional independent installer), but in all cases the manufacturers recommended install procedure will be followed explicitly, and all manufacturer recommended default settings will be applied.
Each setup will be driven by three different drivers of varying skill; an "expert" driver, an "intermediate" driver and a "beginner". Each will drive the same prearranged course both on pavement and in the dirt, over as varied of terrain as we can find. Each driver will be recorded during the drive, and as many cameras as we can get a hold of will be positioned all over the truck and around the course, recording as many aspects as possible. Each driver will be interviewed after the drive for initial thoughts and impressions, and will be given the opportunity to request the shocks be "tuned" however they prefer, and they will then drive the course a second time. Even those shocks that have no adjustability will be mock adjusted, giving the driver the impression their requested changes were made. After the second trip around the course, they will again be interviewed and final thoughts will be given. The identity of the shocks tested will remain hidden until all sets have been run.
All videos, impressions thoughts and notes will be posted unedited for you to review and draw your own conclusions. I will NOT be declaring any winner here. I leave that to you, and your personal preferences, to determine for yourself.
Stuff We Need
Below are lists of things we need to make this happen, beyond the actual shocks already listed:
Money: Current Shock Shootout Fund Balance = $0
Like I said, this doesn't happen without money. We need to hire a shock dyno shop, an installer, pay for a few tanks of gas, buy the out of town drivers some room and board, shipping of the parts back and forth... I don't have a guess at how much we're going to need so instead I'll leave it open for now. If by some miracle I end up with money left over, I'll donate the balance to a good cause (TBD) in each of the contributors name.
Who has contributed (listed by date received):
-
Drivers:
We need three drivers; an expert, an intermediate and a beginner. Interested? Let me know and I'll add your name to the appropriate skill level, and we'll go from there.
Expert drivers:
-Treypal
-
Intermediate drivers:
-nobusa
Beginner drivers:
-vanilla_gorilla (tentative)
-
A Raptor:
Kinda a minor detail, this
. We need a truck. After MUCH debate and discussion (read the thread) the current thinking is that we are looking for a frame reinforced but otherwise bone stock truck; no aftermarket leafs and no aftermarket bumps. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A FRAME KIT, RPG HAS VOLUNTEERED TO LOAN US ONE FOR THIS TEST, AND WE'LL COVER THE INSTALL COSTS! Thank you Raptor Performance Group!
http://www.rpgoffroad.com/products/stage-1-rear-suspension-kit/
If you have a modded truck and you'd be interested in volunteering it up, please still contact me. I'd like to talk with you anyway.
Also, please understand I cannot take responsibility for any damage your truck suffers during any part of this! I can't, and I won't. You volunteer it at your own risk. My suggestion is that the truck we use also be the truck owned by the beginner driver we pick. I am uncomfortable with the idea of putting a beginner in the position of wrecking someone else's truck.
This is serious business guys. Without a truck we don't have a test. On the other hand, I nor anyone associated with this Shock Shootout will be held responsible for ANY damage. Contact me at your own risk.
Truck volunteers:
-vanilla_gorilla (tentative)
-
Cameras and mounts:
We are gonna need lots of GoPro style cameras. Got one you can be without for a month or so? Please let me know!
Who's volunteered a camera:
-2x GoPros (with mounts?) from Treypal
-1x GoPros with lots of mounts from pat'sRaptor
A Three Axis Accelerometer:
We'll bolt this to something rigid inside the body and use it to collect data on the impacts/vibrations/acceleration numbers during the test drives of each shock. We'll then plot it in graph form, and use it to help corroborate the driver's "butt dyno" feedback and video results.
Shock Dyno Shop Suggestions:
Any suggestions? I'm willing to drive a good long way to make this happen if the shop comes well recommended. I figure I can probably test all the options in one very full day. Thoughts?
Install Shop Suggestions:
-nobusa has volunteered the use of his shop, complete with all the tools we're likely to need. He would like to make sure we know, however, he is not a shock specific shop, so we will still need a qualified installer to help lead the way if we do use his place. Thanks Noah!! The problem is his shop is in Northern California. I'm leaving this as an option since the venue hasn't been set yet, however I am leaning toward SoCal if at all possible.
I'm a little unclear how this needs to work, honestly. Ideally, I think we drive the truck to the shop, X gets installed, and its driven back to the 'course start' area to meet with the driver who drives it once, then twice. After that we drive it back to the shop for Y to be installed, rinse and repeat.
In terms of 'where', I am thinking SoCal (Anza Borrego? Barstow? Etc?) Anyone suggest a reliable quality trustworthy install shop?
In terms of timing, according to BlueSVT 2.5 hours per setup should be about right. We'll figure 3 hours per, just to be safe. So, realistically, that will mean at the most 2 setups tested per day if we bust our ass. Yausa!
Last edited:
