They’re ruining our fun fellas.

[WTX]

" “frac’ing” is a loosely used term" You could be (probably are) right here...I'm not in the industry so I don't have any first hand knowledge of how it affects water tables, nor if every use of 'frac'ing' is referring to the same process. I've only spent a little time reading about this, mostly when I heard about the 'flaming faucets' and found that to be total bunk. But there did seem to be valid evidence of water table contamination. I'd probably need more time/space then we have here to be educated that it's as physically impossible as you assert.

"Oil is a mineral, a natural product" Wrong. A mineral is a homogeneous inorganic solid substance having a definite chemical composition and characteristic crystalline structure, color, and hardness. Oil is an organic hydrocarbon. And just because something is found in nature doesn't make it harmless. Cobra venom is 'found in nature'. As is arsenic, strychnine, atropine (though we use it medicinally in a purified form), and botulinum toxin A, 0.03 ounces of which could kill millions. You're probably not sprinkling any of things on your steak. Point is, just because something is 'found in nature' doesn't make it harmless or good for us, nor for all of nature.

As you're a rancher, I do believe you when you say oil on the ground is not ok, and thank you for the food you produce. Believe it or not, I do realize the meat I buy every week from my grocer does not magically appear neatly packaged on their shelf. It has to be raised, sold, slaughtered, trucked around several times, cut into consumer-ready pieces, etc etc, and I'm grateful to EVERYONE who contributes to allowing me (obviously a city dweller) to simply go to my market and buy fresh high quality meats (and fruits and veggies for you ag's out there). A first world benefit.

I also agree petroleum is the most efficient form of stored energy currently available I'm not anti-petroleum. When recharging an e-vehicle is as easy and quick as filing our tanks, then they'll really become as accepted and practical as ICE vehicles are now. Think universally fitting battery packs, small cars take 1 pack, the Raptor-E takes 6 packs...the TRX-E takes the whole dam*n shelf-full...

I commend you on your ability to divert from the subject matter at hand with wild example and then tie the two together.

 

[melvimbe]

Yes, oil is a profit driven industry. Your points could be valid, so could this one: Similar to the decision Ford made in regards to the exploding Pinto gas tanks, any payout due to lawsuits would be less than costs to prevent or remedy the situation. This would include the up-front costs to install all the safety and monitoring equipment, staff it (monitoring it), repair and maintain it over it's lifetime, and replace it at the end of it's service life. If their calculations show this cost is less than any potential legal payouts, then unless it's required by the government, it won't happen. Then when (and I believe it's a 'when', not an 'if') the accident happens, natural land is irreperably damaged (they were still finding oil residue in 2001, 21 years after the Exxon Valdez spill. It lingers in the environment).

You're going with the argument that the people who work and run the oil industry only care about evil inhuman greed monsters who only care about profit? They would not take safety precautions at all if it wasn't for bad PR and government regulations? No. I'm not at all suggesting that there aren't bad actors in oil and gas, but the industry certainly doesn't hold a monopoly on evil. The US government is certainly in the running for that title, but they have a lot of competition.

I think it's worth noting that you're specifically talking about US related accidents and issues, and they are highlighted as these are the things in our face that we can see. What we don't hear about is the safety issues and treatment of land and labor in other parts of the world, that most people don't seem to mind too much. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[GordoJay]

What we don't hear about is the safety issues and treatment of land and labor in other parts of the world, that most people don't seem to mind too much. Out of sight, out of mind.

That's why we sell our coal to China for them to burn. It's why we import oil from places with terrible track records. Then we can stick our heads in the sand and feel sanctimonious about how green we are. There's more pollution than if we did it right, but it's not like we all share the same planet or anything.

 

[DFS]

That's why we sell our coal to China for them to burn. It's why we import oil from places with terrible track records. Then we can stick our heads in the sand and feel sanctimonious about how green we are. There's more pollution than if we did it right, but it's not like we all share the same planet or anything.

Environmental travesty's aside, we know the groups such as the Saudi's/Chinese/Iranians have quite the track record with "human rights" as well. Like someone else said, out of sight, out of mind.

 

[thatJeepguy]

 

[2022 Ruth]

There is no solution. Only trade offs. - Thomas Sowell

 

[GordoJay]

There is no solution. Only trade offs. - Thomas Sowell

Economists and engineers get frustrated by politics because it's not about an efficient solution, it's about power and money and fame and illogical stuff.

 

[2022 Ruth]

Economists and engineers get frustrated by politics because it's not about an efficient solution, it's about power and money and fame and illogical stuff.

Of course. It’s our fault as a nation. We believe them every 4 years and keep voting them in.

If you had an economist or engineer at a debate, no one would like what they had to say. People don’t want honesty.

 

[Ruger]

One year ago the average price of gas in the US was $2.80/gallon. One month ago - before the Russians launched their invasion of Ukraine - the average price of gas in the US was $3.47/gallon. That's all a result of Biden's green energy, anti-fossil fuels policies. Did he cancel the Keystone XL pipeline, yes or no? Did he cancel all oil and gas leases on federal lands, yes or no? And what was the effect of those and other moves on the price of gas in this country? Up 68 cents per gallon - a 24% increase.

Listen, if green energy is so bloody wonderful, why isn't the US military all in? Nuclear powered Navy aircraft carriers and submarines aside (and nuclear power isn't green energy), everything that the Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines, and Coast Guard has runs on fossil fuels. There are no electrically powered tanks, APCs, trucks, fighters, bombers, cruisers, destroyers, frigates, or riverine patrol craft in the US military inventory. Why? Because battery technology isn't ready, and it won't be ready for years.

If battery technology doesn't meet military readiness and sustainment needs, then it doesn't meet mine. Several years ago I moved my household from northern Alabama to northern Nevada - 2,000 miles. I did it with my Raptor, U-Haul trailers, and a U-Haul truck. Could I have done it with a Tesla? Models X and Y are available with a towing package and have 5,000 and 3,500 towing capacities respectively. But towing severely reduces range, and the time penalty involved in stopping multiple times to recharge would have turned a 3-day trip into a 2-week nightmare.

Battery technology is such that even a simple mid-range driving vacation would be severely complicated in an e-vehicle. This past summer my wife and I took a driving vacation from our home in northern Nevada to the Black Hills region of western South Dakota. We did not see a single charging station on that trip, and we were looking.

 

[rbraptor]

Aside from the Raptor, we have a Tesla Model S. I can tell you, making sure it’s charging every night and m/or fully charged all the time is a PIA. And I live in Austin. California has a lot of charging stations but A LOT of teslas - we used to wait an hour before we could even begin charging. Electric vehicles, for some of the good they provide, are clearly not enough to suffice for anyone outside of a major metropolitan city.

Also, anyone who thinks this isn’t on Biden has not been paying attention.