Oil Pump gear necessary for supercharger install?

[bsimms89]

I've been searching the forums trying to decide exactly what setup to go for a supercharger for my 2014 raptor as it is nearing the end of it's warranty. When I do the supercharger I will also do headers and a full exhaust. I was initially going to go with ARH because I've installed them in my 2012 camaro, have been to their shop 10 minutes away from me, have them in my COPO and they make a good product, but now I'm leaning towards kooks because I like the true dual exhaust they make and they also have always been among the best out there.

I've pretty much decided on going with the Whipple vs the Roushe, since I have more experience with them. When I finally pull the trigger I'll probably buy the parts from JDM and get it tuned by them but just had a few questions regarding what package everyone recommends and how necessary the oil pump gear is to replace.

My raptor is my primary daily driver (camaro is convertible only dive it in nice summer weather) and i use it for work, I'm about to hit 60,000 miles on it and want to install a package that is reliable for daily use. I see JDM has a 650hp and 700hp package for the Whipple and then options for the throttle body and upgraded heat exchange. If I don't plan on doing any other internal work on the motor what package is the best bang for the buck without being unnecessary on a motor with stock internals? And at what point is upgrading the oil pump gear really recommended? I can do it myself, but just don't want to spend unnecessary time on it if I don't have to.

 

[Bulletnjm]

@MTF is the engine guru around here

 

[John813]

http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f24/i-know-2nd-time-i-said-but-getting-sc-now-58325/index4.html

Read this thread IMO. Degrades into insults towards the end but you get some insight into why some do the upgrade.
Maybe start on page 3 but page 4 is where Jim at JDM comments.

 

[Riddick]

Agreed @MTF is the person to ask,but I’ll throw my 2 cents in. I have Roush 650, Kooks headers and true duals all from JDM and haven’t had one bit of problems. What I’ve read so far is people are trashing the oil pump gears by pushing the limits. I believe I read one of MTF’s post where he said the engine is over revving during gear changing and shocking the engine causing the oil pump gears to shatter ( he explains it better) JDM has done a great job of smoothing out the transmission. I’ve gotten on it a few times, but nothing close to what I would consider abuse. It’s my DD as well and I take care of my investment.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

http://www.fordraptorforum.com/f24/i-know-2nd-time-i-said-but-getting-sc-now-58325/index4.html

Read this thread IMO. Degrades into insults towards the end but you get some insight into why some do the upgrade.
Maybe start on page 3 but page 4 is where Jim at JDM comments.

Excellent thread to better explain. Couldn’t remember where I saw it.

 

[John813]

Agreed @MTF is the person to ask,but I’ll throw my 2 cents in. I have Roush 650, Kooks headers and true duals all from JDM and haven’t had one bit of problems. What I’ve read so far is people are trashing the oil pump gears by pushing the limits. I believe I read one of MTF’s post where he said the engine is over revving during gear changing and shocking the engine causing the oil pump gears to shatter ( he explains it better) JDM has done a great job of smoothing out the transmission. I’ve gotten on it a few times, but nothing close to what I would consider abuse. It’s my DD as well and I take care of my investment.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------



Excellent thread to better explain. Couldn’t remember where I saw it.

Same here. While this truck isn't babied, I'm not going to beat the living **** out of it every time I drive it. Maybe the gears was a waste of $, but having been through a engine rebuild due to a ~20 dollar part failing(Lightning) I rather be safe than sorry this go around. The times I go offroading the truck has/will see 5k-6k rpm revs going through various terrains.

How are your shifts into 3rd/4th? On my way home from the install, I gave it half throttle and it slammed into 3rd on a downshift. Chalked it up to the truck still learning the tune/relearning phase.
Sometimes while upshifting it's a tad firmer into 3rd than the other gears.

 

[1BAD454SS]

80,000 total on truck 50,000 of that with whipple . I run it pretty hard . JDM tune. keep oil changed every 2500 miles. I wouldn't change oil pump unless i'm already inside engine. IF **** is going to happen its going happen.

 

[Riddick]

Same here. While this truck isn't babied, I'm not going to beat the living **** out of it every time I drive it. Maybe the gears was a waste of $, but having been through a engine rebuild due to a ~20 dollar part failing(Lightning) I rather be safe than sorry this go around. The times I go offroading the truck has/will see 5k-6k rpm revs going through various terrains.

How are your shifts into 3rd/4th? On my way home from the install, I gave it half throttle and it slammed into 3rd on a downshift. Chalked it up to the truck still learning the tune/relearning phase.
Sometimes while upshifting it's a tad firmer into 3rd than the other gears.

Mine are smooth down and up. I opened it up a few weeks back on a little fast and furious rice burner and noticed I dropped to 3rd a little firm, but nothing harsh. 4,5,and 6 were crisp and smooth.

 

[Airborne Roush]

I have a Roush with 56k on it. The SC has been on it the entire time. Based on a ton of reading the oil gears are a good idea regardless, even more with a SC. There was someone on here that just blew his engine to pieces on a n/a. Ford's oil gears are junk. Period. The people that run lightnings (as you may know) and of course the mustangs are plagued with the opg problem more than we see.

After reading on here I thought it might be a Web MD thing where you look up your shoulder pain and end up self-diagnosing with AIDS. I couldn't find a quick yes or no. Some say yes change them others say no worries, then that dude blew his n/a truck apart. So I started reading and read a LOT. What I came up with is not from my experience but what I have read from many people.

Adding a SC into the mix really changes things up on the engine. That is standard for any make. Even guys with Miatas toast their oil gears when they start adding boost. It's about the harmonics. The stock damper can't keep up with the change in freq that a SC adds. If you read around there are tons of cases of oil pump gears failing after a SC. It's a roll of the dice really. The higher the hp and tq at the wheels, away from stock numbers, and those start stacking quick against you.

There are some articles that spell it out in more detail but in short your engine resonates at "x" frequency. The engineers find that freq and prescribe "x" harmonic balancer. That is what comes on the vehicle from the factory. Adding a SC changes that to "y" freq. The crankshaft driven oil pumps are subject to all of these vibrations. The tolerances on the oil pump gears are ridiculously tight. Half a 10 thousandth of an inch or .0005. With tolerances that tight any change can be a drastic problem. Add that to the finite flexing of the crank shaft and it's a recipe for failure.

The standard for most others, and it seems to help, is running a better harmonic balancer. I read a LOT about those too. They definitely help and I couldn't find a single case of opg failure after people run a quality damper like from ATI. After all the reading it looks like baseline after getting a SC is putting on a quality harmonic balancer.

Running a better damper doesn't fix the issue though it just helps mitigate it.
The real issue is weak gears not just the frequency changing.

All that being said I plan on making more hp to the wheels in the near future over the phase II Roush so I picked up a Super damper in addition to having the gears swapped out. That should solve the weak gear issue as well as help mitigate future issues. Oh... and I got the 12% OD damper so I should pick up 1-2 psi!

 

[JimIII@JDM]

The gears may not be 100% necessary but when installing a Supercharger that is the time to do them if you so choose to. Installing the gears after having a blower installed is counter productive labor. It would take about 10-12 hrs instead of a typical 7-8 hr install. We've done it both ways in shop and recommend doing it before hand for that reason.

Now, I would say 90% or more of our Supercharged customers do not run billet oil pump gears. But take it from a person who has had an oil pump failure (2006 Mustang GT) it will be catastrophic to your engine. Almost instant failure after losing oil pressure, bearings destroyed metal through out the motor, possibly even seizing the engine if not detected immediately.

Now what you can do to prevent this issue is avoid massive tire spin and or wheel hop (axle wrap). This sort of situation occurs usually on dry pavement where you get tire spin and the rear end of the truck starts bouncing around. The tire chatter sends shock waves through the driveline and can shatter the gears. If you go into a hard tire spin and this happens let out of the throttle! Do not get out of the throttle and stab back into it, that shock too can cause the gears to fail. Other ways the gears can fail not so much related to the Raptor however would be extreme RPM, bouncing off the rev limiter, Drag racing,etc...

A good way to prevent wheel hop or excessive tire spin would be traction bars or heavy duty leaf springs.

There already have been several reported and known failures including forum members here. I would say I've heard of at least 4-5 myself from people who have called in and also a local customer who came in to have us replace his engine.

So they way I look at doing oil pump gears is an insurance policy. You may never need it, but in the event you did you're damn glad you had it.

JimIII@JDM

 

[biturbomg]

What is the max boost seen on these whipple and Roush trucks that are considered safe levels. What are signs of the oil gears going aside from motor not cranking. Does the entire motor get trashed, sounds, smoke, leaks, dtc's?